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Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !

Posted by: topspeed - Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:45 am
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Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude ! 
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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:41 am
aceshigh wrote:
What I do not understand is how exactly will the solar plane stage meaningfully help getting anything in orbit.

Orbit is a function of velocity, not height. You need some 28 thousand km/h of delta-v to get to LEO.

How much of that delta-v does the solar plane contributes to? 1 thousand km/h? Maybe less?

It seems the whole concept is "launch from great altitude, avoid atmospheric drag". However, that atmospheric drag is a very small part of the consumption of a rocket. Most of it goes to achieve the 28 thousand km/h. And ANYWAY, after less than 1 minute of acceleration a ground-launched rocket is already taller than the Solar Plane might go... and much faster already.

Therefore, it´s a LOT of added complexity (an extra stage that is a GIGANTIC solar plane which contributes almost nothing to delta-v) with not much benefit.


Hello aceshigh !

Glad to see a SSC/NSF folks here too.

AcesHigh it is not quite that complicated what I am trying to prove.

As you did notise the X-15 glows red at 100 000 ft going mach 6...but SS1 at 65 km ( 210 000 ft ) hardly heats up at Mach 3.1.

So if you are able to fly to 45 km subsonic and then hit the rocket engine no 1 with mild thrust in..you'd be accelerating beyond the thick air where things seem to get heated up.

Shuttles at 28 000 km/h entry started to heat up at 79,5-48 km.

So flying high well below Shuttle speeds you still get enough lift for this space mother ship to fly.

Also you can check that at 100 km if the craft went 20 000 km/h it gets lift 50 000 kg:s worth....but due to its enermous speed the centripetal force ( mv^2/r) acting upon it would be 41 000 kg...so if its total weight at that moment is 91 000 kg even..it flies straight and level. Any faster speed would pull it up higher....and there is a great risk that we might have to use this Solar Swan/Eagle for the Mars landing as well...as there is also atmosphere...and we only use the Mars "LANDER" as an escape vehicle to get back to earth !?

Does it still look complicated system to you ?
When I expressed this idea at Cosmoquest site 2013 I was immediately jettisoned from the site. It is just food for toughts..I haven't solved all problems related to this phenomena.

:mrgreen:

Merry Christmas AcesHigh !


rgds,

Juke


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal_force

Also

G-force at 100 km is 9.49 kg/s^2

We also enjoy lesser G-force at 100 km altitude.

www.noah.org/wiki/Gravity_and_notes_abo ... ger's_jump

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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:16 pm
topspeed wrote:
Also

G-force at 100 km is 9.49 kg/s^2

We also enjoy lesser G-force at 100 km altitude.



I suspect you mean 9.49 metres /s^2 I know we have mostly gone metric this side of the pond so the analogy used these days is a 100 gram apple provides a force of approx 1 Newton but gravity is not measured by weight even though we have now figured this side of the channel how to measure an accurate Kg redefining it via a watt balance upsetting a few Frenchmen IIRC

http://www.npl.co.uk/engineering-measur ... tt-balance

And now days thanks to our American cousins ironically still mostly using our old imperial measurements the metric watt balance can now be done using Lego.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/at-w ... with-legos

Anyway back to the subject in my researches for my project I found that the gravitational drag loss for the Saturn V was 1534 m/sec and its atmospheric drag loss was 40 m/sec. This did surprise me as I thought the atmospheric drag loss would have been more. But as you are know doubt aware overall systems can be much more complex and with the higher ISP of a powered plane it maybe possible carry more fuel to a height where it is more useful but like Virgins system it is yet to been seen while it can be done safely and commercially.

I like a few others here I suspect might be slightly sceptical about some of your ideas but like JamesG with his comments on propellers constructive criticism is given amongst the humorous comments and the mods here are very tolerant unless you are an out and out spammer or abusive.

Given the blue sky nature of your project have you thought about with the large area of PV solar you are proposing to have, using electric motors to get you to a certain height and then flipping over to an ion drive ionizing and magnetically accelerating ionized air. It would involve I suspect quite a few calculations whether you would have enough power to still accelerate even with the reduced drag at high altitudes. But it might be a black swan tech if it turned out to be viable. I doubt you could get up to orbital speeds but it might be possible to get fast enough for cheaper air launches you never know until all the calcs are done :wink: :twisted: any way food for thought maybe.

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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:15 pm
topspeed wrote:
AcesHigh it is not quite that complicated what I am trying to prove.


exactly, it´s not complicated to see it can´t work.


Quote:
As you did notise the X-15 glows red at 100 000 ft going mach 6...but SS1 at 65 km ( 210 000 ft ) hardly heats up at Mach 3.1.

So if you are able to fly to 45 km subsonic and then hit the rocket engine no 1 with mild thrust in..you'd be accelerating beyond the thick air where things seem to get heated up.


that's quite irrelevant considering a rocket will get to that height in less than a minute.


Quote:
So flying high well below Shuttle speeds you still get enough lift for this space mother ship to fly.


it adds too much complexity to the system, a HUGE airplane which is an additional stage that is not even necessary. Because it will save almost no fuel.


Quote:
Also you can check that at 100 km if the craft went 20 000 km/h it gets lift 50 000 kg:s worth....but due to its enermous speed the centripetal force ( mv^2/r) acting upon it would be 41 000 kg...so if its total weight at that moment is 91 000 kg even..it flies straight and level. Any faster speed would pull it up higher....and there is a great risk that we might have to use this Solar Swan/Eagle for the Mars landing as well...as there is also atmosphere...and we only use the Mars "LANDER" as an escape vehicle to get back to earth !?


again irrelevant. The centripetal force will act on a rocket alone. No need for your Solar Eagle. Also, that centripetal force is due to speed and height. But to reach enough speed you need to spend rocket fuel ANYWAY, because the Solar Eagle can´t reach those speeds alone.

Therefore whatever you gain with centripetal force, you are WASTING BEFORE, by making the rocket accelerate the mass of a huge 120 meters wide airplane.



Quote:
Does it still look complicated system to you ?


sorry, not only complicated, but totally fantasious and


Quote:
When I expressed this idea at Cosmoquest site 2013 I was immediately jettisoned from the site. It is just food for toughts..I haven't solved all problems related to this phenomena.


I doubt you were only jettisoned for exposing the idea.

Also, on NSF the thread was locked because it was a mess the way I created it. You could very well have created another one exposing your idea, but I know it would be debunked.


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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:39 pm
SANEAlex wrote:
topspeed wrote:
Also

G-force at 100 km is 9.49 kg/s^2

We also enjoy lesser G-force at 100 km altitude.



I suspect you mean 9.49 metres /s^2 I know we have mostly gone metric this side of the pond so the analogy used these days is a 100 gram apple provides a force of approx 1 Newton but gravity is not measured by weight even though we have now figured this side of the channel how to measure an accurate Kg redefining it via a watt balance upsetting a few Frenchmen IIRC

http://www.npl.co.uk/engineering-measur ... tt-balance

And now days thanks to our American cousins ironically still mostly using our old imperial measurements the metric watt balance can now be done using Lego.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/at-w ... with-legos

Anyway back to the subject in my researches for my project I found that the gravitational drag loss for the Saturn V was 1534 m/sec and its atmospheric drag loss was 40 m/sec. This did surprise me as I thought the atmospheric drag loss would have been more. But as you are know doubt aware overall systems can be much more complex and with the higher ISP of a powered plane it maybe possible carry more fuel to a height where it is more useful but like Virgins system it is yet to been seen while it can be done safely and commercially.

I like a few others here I suspect might be slightly sceptical about some of your ideas but like JamesG with his comments on propellers constructive criticism is given amongst the humorous comments and the mods here are very tolerant unless you are an out and out spammer or abusive.

Given the blue sky nature of your project have you thought about with the large area of PV solar you are proposing to have, using electric motors to get you to a certain height and then flipping over to an ion drive ionizing and magnetically accelerating ionized air. It would involve I suspect quite a few calculations whether you would have enough power to still accelerate even with the reduced drag at high altitudes. But it might be a black swan tech if it turned out to be viable. I doubt you could get up to orbital speeds but it might be possible to get fast enough for cheaper air launches you never know until all the calcs are done :wink: :twisted: any way food for thought maybe.



Yes Alex...9.49 m/s^2 !

That Ion drive sounds interesting...as I do have a lot of solar panels with high efficiency producing 1500 kWs constantly.

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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:54 pm
aceshigh wrote:
topspeed wrote:
AcesHigh it is not quite that complicated what I am trying to prove.


exactly, it´s not complicated to see it can´t work.


Quote:
As you did notise the X-15 glows red at 100 000 ft going mach 6...but SS1 at 65 km ( 210 000 ft ) hardly heats up at Mach 3.1.

So if you are able to fly to 45 km subsonic and then hit the rocket engine no 1 with mild thrust in..you'd be accelerating beyond the thick air where things seem to get heated up.


that's quite irrelevant considering a rocket will get to that height in less than a minute.


Quote:
So flying high well below Shuttle speeds you still get enough lift for this space mother ship to fly.


it adds too much complexity to the system, a HUGE airplane which is an additional stage that is not even necessary. Because it will save almost no fuel.


Quote:
Also you can check that at 100 km if the craft went 20 000 km/h it gets lift 50 000 kg:s worth....but due to its enermous speed the centripetal force ( mv^2/r) acting upon it would be 41 000 kg...so if its total weight at that moment is 91 000 kg even..it flies straight and level. Any faster speed would pull it up higher....and there is a great risk that we might have to use this Solar Swan/Eagle for the Mars landing as well...as there is also atmosphere...and we only use the Mars "LANDER" as an escape vehicle to get back to earth !?


again irrelevant. The centripetal force will act on a rocket alone. No need for your Solar Eagle. Also, that centripetal force is due to speed and height. But to reach enough speed you need to spend rocket fuel ANYWAY, because the Solar Eagle can´t reach those speeds alone.

Therefore whatever you gain with centripetal force, you are WASTING BEFORE, by making the rocket accelerate the mass of a huge 120 meters wide airplane.



Quote:
Does it still look complicated system to you ?


sorry, not only complicated, but totally fantasious and


Quote:
When I expressed this idea at Cosmoquest site 2013 I was immediately jettisoned from the site. It is just food for toughts..I haven't solved all problems related to this phenomena.


I doubt you were only jettisoned for exposing the idea.

Also, on NSF the thread was locked because it was a mess the way I created it. You could very well have created another one exposing your idea, but I know it would be debunked.


It cannot be debunked as it works now with bigger solar panel area...also reasobably large payload can be delivered to the LEO. I know many would like not to see this kinda idea developed for several reasons. I was also jettisoned from Homebuilt Airplanes site...as it was off topic...and I kept coming back to it as I did on Cosmoquest.

I am curious..if you say it only takes a minute from a rocket to get there..Apollo used 95% of the fuel by 65 km altitude and had enermous speed..the minute makes no difference..but when the Solar Eagle gets there in few minutes from 45 km to 100 km ( it is only 55 km ) it burns ludicrously little amount of fuel..as it is very lite and used solar to get there.

Only big problem is the politics and then there is the building of a really huge plane which is pretty fragile..it is very demanding to design structurally. Also good models of the aerodynamics at the 50-100 km region for this kinda ship at high speed aren't there...can it use propellers after mach 1..or do they have to be feathered for the rocket flight..or keep turning when the rpms of 2000 are reached ( Mach 3 ). etc etc ?

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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:25 am
aceshigh wrote:
exactly, it´s not complicated to see it can´t work.




Hey now, be nice. What he is proposing isn't that far off from what many very rich guys have taken very seriously with Spaceship One and its follow on projects. It is a valid concept even if it hasn't been practical... yet. He is just a bit ambitious and maybe doesn't articulate the greatest.

Orbital velocity is the end state solution to the equation. How you get there has more than one formula.


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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:47 pm
JamesG wrote:
aceshigh wrote:
exactly, it´s not complicated to see it can´t work.




Hey now, be nice. What he is proposing isn't that far off from what many very rich guys have taken very seriously with Spaceship One and its follow on projects. It is a valid concept even if it hasn't been practical... yet. He is just a bit ambitious and maybe doesn't articulate the greatest.

Orbital velocity is the end state solution to the equation. How you get there has more than one formula.


I agree this is a bit ambitious.


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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:55 am
JamesG wrote:
aceshigh wrote:
exactly, it´s not complicated to see it can´t work.




Hey now, be nice. What he is proposing isn't that far off from what many very rich guys have taken very seriously with Spaceship One and its follow on projects. It is a valid concept even if it hasn't been practical... yet. He is just a bit ambitious and maybe doesn't articulate the greatest.



it´s very different from Spaceship One. 22 thousand kilometers per hour difference. It´s the reason Spaceship One only does a SMALL HOP into space, but never enters orbit... the delta-v is simply too small.


Quote:
Orbital velocity is the end state solution to the equation. How you get there has more than one formula.


yes, but I think his formula can´t get to orbital speed. Or it can, but then all the delta-v is created by the rocket (and notice the rocket is the most complicated part, but he does not design rocket engines) while his solar plane... becomes really, just a redundant part of the solution.

what's the use of the solar plane? Take the rocket to an altitude of 80 km. What's the use of that? Save fuel? Hardly. As I said, a rocket gets to 80 km altitude in less than 1 minute and by that time, it already has a much larger delta-v.

So what you save in fuel because of less air drag is a tiny fraction of the total fuel value AND that is less than 1% of the total launching cost. So with the solar plane you are saving a fraction of 1% of the launching cost.



Real advantages:
- less launching delays due to bad weather
- increased nozzle efficiency, because you can adjust the nozzle to low air pressure

Disadvantages:
- do NOT take lightly anything that adds to complexity of the process. The solar plane is an EXTRA stage. It does not reduces the number of stages because it can´t give enough delta-v to the airplane. Complexity adds costs. A 120 meters wide solar plane is bound to result in added costs and complexity.



Really. Elon Musk owns Tesla and is a major shareholder of Solar City.

That means Elon Musk would be the perfect guy to unite BATTERIES (they are creating that Gigafactory for Tesla), SOLAR PANELS (Solar City) and Rockets/Space Exploration (SpaceX).

In fact, Elon Musk has talked several times already he sees electric planes in the future.

However, Elon Musk doesnt even consider solar airplanes to launch rockets. Why an innovative guy like him, who owns several companies that would be perfect to launch rockets from solar planes, doesn´t explore the idea?

That's food for thought. But the result of the thought is what I wrote above. Extra complexity for too little gain.


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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:27 pm
SANEAlex wrote:
topspeed wrote:


Anyway back to the subject in my researches for my project I found that the gravitational drag loss for the Saturn V was 1534 m/sec and its atmospheric drag loss was 40 m/sec. This did surprise me as I thought the atmospheric drag loss would have been more. But as you are know doubt aware overall systems can be much more complex and with the higher ISP of a powered plane it maybe possible carry more fuel to a height where it is more useful but like Virgins system it is yet to been seen while it can be done safely and commercially.



Given the blue sky nature of your project have you thought about with the large area of PV solar you are proposing to have, using electric motors to get you to a certain height and then flipping over to an ion drive ionizing and magnetically accelerating ionized air. It would involve I suspect quite a few calculations whether you would have enough power to still accelerate even with the reduced drag at high altitudes. But it might be a black swan tech if it turned out to be viable. I doubt you could get up to orbital speeds but it might be possible to get fast enough for cheaper air launches you never know until all the calcs are done :wink: :twisted: any way food for thought maybe.


Hi Alex !


How much thrust could a given IOn THRUSTER system produce it it has 1500 kW continuous power available and 1500 + 3000 kW from the accus ( 4500 altogether ) at the phase it accelerates from mach 0.9 to mach 4 for instance at 50-70 km ?

There is around 3400 m2 of solar panel area in this ( 20-40 % efficient ).

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Last edited by topspeed on Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:40 pm
aceshigh wrote:
JamesG wrote:
aceshigh wrote:
exactly, it´s not complicated to see it can´t work.




Hey now, be nice. What he is proposing isn't that far off from what many very rich guys have taken very seriously with Spaceship One and its follow on projects. It is a valid concept even if it hasn't been practical... yet. He is just a bit ambitious and maybe doesn't articulate the greatest.



it´s very different from Spaceship One. 22 thousand kilometers per hour difference. It´s the reason Spaceship One only does a SMALL HOP into space, but never enters orbit... the delta-v is simply too small.


Quote:
Orbital velocity is the end state solution to the equation. How you get there has more than one formula.


yes, but I think his formula can´t get to orbital speed. Or it can, but then all the delta-v is created by the rocket (and notice the rocket is the most complicated part, but he does not design rocket engines) while his solar plane... becomes really, just a redundant part of the solution.

what's the use of the solar plane? Take the rocket to an altitude of 80 km. What's the use of that? Save fuel? Hardly. As I said, a rocket gets to 80 km altitude in less than 1 minute and by that time, it already has a much larger delta-v.

So what you save in fuel because of less air drag is a tiny fraction of the total fuel value AND that is less than 1% of the total launching cost. So with the solar plane you are saving a fraction of 1% of the launching cost.



Real advantages:
- less launching delays due to bad weather
- increased nozzle efficiency, because you can adjust the nozzle to low air pressure

Disadvantages:
- do NOT take lightly anything that adds to complexity of the process. The solar plane is an EXTRA stage. It does not reduces the number of stages because it can´t give enough delta-v to the airplane. Complexity adds costs. A 120 meters wide solar plane is bound to result in added costs and complexity.



Really. Elon Musk owns Tesla and is a major shareholder of Solar City.

That means Elon Musk would be the perfect guy to unite BATTERIES (they are creating that Gigafactory for Tesla), SOLAR PANELS (Solar City) and Rockets/Space Exploration (SpaceX).

In fact, Elon Musk has talked several times already he sees electric planes in the future.

However, Elon Musk doesnt even consider solar airplanes to launch rockets. Why an innovative guy like him, who owns several companies that would be perfect to launch rockets from solar planes, doesn´t explore the idea?

That's food for thought. But the result of the thought is what I wrote above. Extra complexity for too little gain.



Elon sounds like nice guy. I have also an electric car concept that could get a 5 people from A to B if distance is 800 km.

Maybe Elon hasn't yet heard about this kinda possibility.

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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:22 pm
The ION thruster produces about 100 N with max power and around 35 N in space.

In the weightlessness of space it is a lot of power, but not in the atmosphere in Earths gravity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster

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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:12 pm
HIGHLY experimental ion thrusters called NTPDs, never tested in continuous mode, produce 26 N with 1600 kW

that would accelerate your 35 tons solar eagle at 0.001 m/s². However, towards Mars, acceleration would decrease due to decreased power produced by the solar cells.


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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:50 pm
aceshigh wrote:
HIGHLY experimental ion thrusters called NTPDs, never tested in continuous mode, produce 26 N with 1600 kW

that would accelerate your 35 tons solar eagle at 0.001 m/s². However, towards Mars, acceleration would decrease due to decreased power produced by the solar cells.


I think in space you have no insolation related decrease..but maybe near Saturn it already starts to affect since it is further from the sun.

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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:29 pm
Let's take another angle to this...if this set up takes aroute to a far away star little closer to the sun to get higher reading for the solar efficiency and gets around 16 000 kW from the panels..how fast will it be going after a month having 240 N thrust and initial speed of 20 km/s ( weighs around 35 000 kg ).


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Post Re: Aeroplane that reaches 80 km altitude !   Posted on: Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:42 pm
How much does 13K m^2 of "solar sail" (mylar?) weight?


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