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Will Answer Questions

Posted by: Sir_Realist - Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:49 pm
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Post    Posted on: Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:23 am
Hello, joel,

I didn't speculate about reasons. I didn't say that DVP or Scaled are really applying those policies developed and sometimes recommended by PR theories as part of Enterprise Economics etc. - I only said, that they MIGHT be doing so PERHAPS.

Scaled at least will have at least one employee who is an expert concerning PR. This expert carefully selects the informations that Scaled makes public but he never will select all informations. This means that the public image is different to the objectively correct image that would be caused by the total of all facts.

DVP MIGHT have a PR-expert selecting informations too - but adopting another information policy than Scaled's expert.

Which information policy is to be chosen depends on where ateam is currently placed in a competition - if a team is in the lead it has to do another information policy than if it were behind or in the hunt and it will change its information policy if it loses the leading position. One team is proving informations on facts the other team doesn't speak of.

This means that necessarily the conclusions you have done in your post from Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:22 pm and that post establishing a hypothesis are based on a misleading informational situation.

Scaled actively and consciously is causing an artificial image in the public - DVP PERHAPS is doing that too. But both teams use a different policy. As a consequence conclusions based on direct comparisons of the informations MAY lead to a wrong image that noone can detect unless the both teams unveil their information policy. But based on the knowledge of concepts of PR theory it is possible to look suspiciously at the comparison-based conclusions - don't trust them too much. There are facts but these facts cannot be compared because of the information policies.

Conclusions not based on such comparisons are not causing wrong images this way - you can trust them a little bit more.

All this I say based on Economics. It is vaild regardless of DVP and Scaled or other teams in industries far off space or space travels. German commentators often suggested that President Reagan did something similar when he set up the SDI program...


Yes - I am suggesting that DVP PERHAPS MIGHT have "had a more fully completed rocket at the time of their 'Roll-Out', but chose to display the hollow shell instead". We don't know that - so it is impossible for us to say " it is so" or "it is not so".

The information policies allways are providing traps. And DVP still has to lose something - there are all the other teams too and ILAT too has a balloon concept. DVP may want to be in the lead in the XPRIZE CUP and the may want to pull customers.

Concerning a launch they are 4.5 months behind if they would do a test launch now but they are only 1 month behind if they do a real launch now - we don't know yet, what kind of launch it might be.

And there is one fact that Sir_Realist is right in - since SS1's second flight the situation is changed.

Before that flight or before the first SS1-flight at least DVP could win 10,000,000 $. They had said that they had decided to do that - which caused some people to express the hope that DVP WOULD NOT launch. They really hoped that and posted that here. They hoped urgently and asked DVP not to launch. And there was the canadian Professor who irgently said that DVP shouldn't launch. But to win the 10,000,000 they decided to launch. A few days before the launch they informed the public of the delay in delivery.

Then the second flight of SS1 removed the hope to win 10,000,000 $ which changed the situation completely - no cash to be won by a quick or immediate launch. Now the arguments of that Professor or the hopes of those posters hoping they wouldn't launch had to be considered to have much more weight than before - relatively at least.

This to me too would be a valid reason to extend the delay - I suppose they wouldn't do that if still a prize could be won. Here at work in the company I'm an employee of such things are common practice somehow - none is causing that anger or problems.



Hello, mrmorris.

now you are interpreting me - I never said that speculations are restricted to be favorable to DVP. And I never tried to forbid something. There wasn't a memo. Take what I say but don't conclude from that to hidden intentions or meanings - I would say them openly or they are not given.

As I said above - my post was based on PR theories and PR concepts developed by Economics for use in practice. Teams and enterprises are "playing" with the images of the public and their competitors by creating these images artificially - they are trying to manipulate us to some degree. Everyone should keep that in mind.



All this has nothing to with excuses and the like - it has to do with the logic of causes only ("Kausallogik" in German - "causal logic" or "logic causality" in English?).



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Post    Posted on: Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:55 pm
Sidi Ekkehard,
In English, when one uses words like 'might' and 'perhaps', one is speculating.

"Scaled actively and consciously is causing an artificial image in the public - DVP PERHAPS is doing that too. "

You've got this backwards. Scaled has done what they said they would do, on schedule. DVP has made numerous claims that have turned out to be false, and continue to make vague statements.

"Yes - I am suggesting that DVP PERHAPS MIGHT have "had a more fully completed rocket at the time of their 'Roll-Out', but chose to display the hollow shell instead"."

DVP said they would display the completed Wildfire VI at the roll-out. They didn't. Although in principle the scenario you suggest above is possible, it is also ludicrous.


"Concerning a launch they are 4.5 months behind if they would do a test launch now but they are only 1 month behind if they do a real launch now - we don't know yet, what kind of launch it might be. "

DVP is at least 4.5 months behind Scaled in getting their man into space. You can use new-math to measure from Scaled's second Xprize flight to DVP's first launch attempt if you like, but your answer will be wrong. DVP will not be able to achieve two Xprize-qualifying flights in two weeks at their first shot, if for no other reason than they haven't given 60 days notice for their launch date.

"But to win they (DVP) 10,000,000 they decided to launch. "

Now this is pure speculation. It is just as possible that DVP never intended to launch, that the whoe affair was a ruse to gain attention and sponsor $$ so they could play in their shop. We can only know that they decided to launch when they actually do launch. Ekke, I enjoy your wierd far-out ideas, but please either play by your own rules or quit lecturing the rest of us to do so. Cheers, /jd


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Post    Posted on: Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:07 pm
I've got to agree with joel here...the intellectualization and attempted rationalization of NSFB's motivation and shenanigans is ludicrous. I don't mean to blast you Ekkehard, but it's all just a whole bunch of "pissing in the wind". Nobody knows what's inside this guy's head except him. Everything else is speculation and opinion. I think my opinion and several other poster's opinions and speculations are well established here. It seems that you just want to keep waiting for something that's not going to happen....ever. If you want to keep wishing on a star, go ahead. It is certainly your right to do that. But, even though you may not feel that you are intending to do this, everything you seem to say on this topic seems to be representing you as an apologist for NSFB and one who feels that he's about to produce a successful launch. Use some of that scientific method you talk about all the time to critically examine the empirical facts and I think you will agree that something not-so-kosher is going on here.

As was said before...after awhile, in the absence of any other facts which NSFB holds close to his vest, one can ONLY assume that....if it walks like a duck...quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, looks like a duck...it's most probably a duck.

I can hear NSFB quacking now...unfortunately...the folks in Kindersley will be the ones cleaning up the duck droppings.

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Post    Posted on: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:11 am
Hello, joel,

you say "In English, when one uses words like 'might' and 'perhaps', one is speculating." - this means that the german translations of these words - "könnte" and "vielleicht" have an at least slightly different meaning. I myself and many other Germnas use these words to indicate "I don't know for sure" or "It may be different" too - these words are indicating that one is cautious and conscious that he is saying something that isn't based on sufficient facts, that is speculation, that is suspicion or that is assumption. Use of this words is an explicit "warning" to check independtly and objectively wether it's right what has been said and not to take it as a real fact.

In contrary the german translation of the word "obvious" - that you used, harbinger1337 - is "offensichtlich". This word means "openly seeable" or "you can look at it freely" or "it's hidden to nobody" - the word is indicating that someone claims to be speaking of a fact.

So far at first thank you for the clarifying, joel, there really seems to be a misunderstanding beyond or beneath the simple translations. I have caused it as not-native speaker - it's really my fault and I have to learn which is possible by experience only I suppose.



To repeat it - I wanted to indicate that I don't claim to be speaking of facts. I only explained or described one or more hypothesises that are alternative to yours, joel.

The purpose of doing that is to show that arguing, or blaming someone based on hypothesises don't lead to any useful result. I wanted to show that this way certain doubts allways will be left - certain and severe doubts. The way could cause unjustified damages to DVP's or Feeney's image in the general public - "COULD": I don't know wether it really will do but it is possible.

My arguments concerning the comparison are valid in general - such a comparison allways is valid only based on nearly complete informations about facts won independent of the teams the facts are concerning. Informations provided by Scaled don't be independently won informations - informations provided by DVP don't be independently won informations. But this is valid concerning Microsoft, General Motors, general Electric, Boeing, Schlumberger etc. too.

And it is of huge practical meaning - enterprises and trusts often have a special department designing and doing PR policies and working by these policies.

One correction I consider to be required - DVP is a XPRIZE-team. They were officially competing to win the 10,000,000 $ before Scaled has won the prize. To win the cash was the reason why they had announced to launch at 2nd of October - they had given a 60 days-notice and it would have been an official XPRIZE-launch. That has been my understanding of that what the Foundation has said concerning this according to articles. Because of this this is no speculation - but I may have been in error or I may have been misunderstanding.

The fact that they didn't really launch then doesn't necessarily mean that they never had the intention to launch - this is an interpretation. You are right - it is possible that they never intended to launch but it is possible too that they really intended but couldn't because of unexpected delays. Two possibilities = two hypothesises competing to each other.

Hypothesises, opinions, speculations, assumptions, suspicions... has that been of any use here? Has it caused any success? Has it been helping the people at Kindersley in practice? I desire the use, the success, the help for the Kindersley-people - but hypothesises, opinions and speculations etc. don't provide that seen from my point of view. So I want another way to be found or detected - and I try to assist that. Opinions and the like are an Odyssee...

For this reason James Hughes is right, bad_astra has been acting well by writing an open letter to Brian Feeney, mrmorris was right in taking the chance to ask Sir_Realist urgent questions while respecting the restrictions Sir_realist has set and virgair was right in putting questions in short to Sir_Realist.



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Post    Posted on: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:28 pm
Hmm...
Using same logic, PERHAPS DVP are launching tomorrow - not from Kindersly but from another "secret" location. Announcing Kindersly as their launch site MIGHT have been their PR move to distract attention of those who would like to steal their technology.
On the other hand, MAYBE DVP have already flown their mission, but for some internal reasons they prefer to keep quiet.
Are you ABSOLUTELLY sure that it was Scaled who won the prize in FACT??? I mean everything you can complain to are news articles, videos etc. COULD they be made up? The only people who have PROVEN information are astronauts and guys in mission control (even in this case, IF their instruments where working OK). Rest of us are just SPECULATING. :wink:

Seriously speaking, I believe that this sophistic discussion of what might or might not have been is leading to nowhere.


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Post Sir_Realist, this includes two questions to you   Posted on: Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:11 pm
Hello, stranger,

"might", "might not" really is leading to nowhere - as "speculation", "opinion" etc. does too.

That is what I wanted to demonstrate. I didn't express no opinion, speculation or assumption that I would be identifying to be MY opinion, assumption etc. - I only described possible assumptions etc. to show that all this is leading to nowhere.

The reason to do so is simple: This thread has been initialized by Sir_Realist as member of DVP... - as he himself claims. Under certain restriction he is offering answers according to the initial post. If someone doesn't trust him to be a member that person is right in not asking Sir_Realist and that person is right in not responding to Sir_Realist - but this person should have in mind and keep in mind that there may be others here that really trust him to be a DVP-member and hope to get some informations from him.

Which means that the not-trusting person urgently should prevent to be discouraging Sir_Realist - others may be considering him to be or become a long desired source of informations about facts. As a consequence in this thread no opinions, speculations and the like should be posted - but they have been posted and so I tried to demonstrate something.

If Sir_Realist really is a member of DVP he might report his experience during this thread to the others and they too might be discouraged... - and this will make it harder to get facts from DVP. It will become harder too for those who are trusting DVP - it will become harder for the general public, the serious ones among the media and so on.

This would be a damage.

Sir_Realist has listed several restrictions causing some of us expressed dissatisfaction. It's allright not to ask him then. I myself really found a question the answer to hasn't been restricted by his list - the question if PR experts or PR consultants are involved in DVP. He didn't refuse the answer but had to confess that he doesn't know. Unsatisfying - yes. But I'm free to ask him for putting the question to Brian Feeney - I didn't yet but that's my fault.

This has nothing to do with assumptions or opinions.

Regarding the trust in claims to be a member of DVP there is at least one way to make sure that a person really is such a member: An open letter to Brian Feeney subscribed by several people discussing here - a letter claiming that

1. Feeney publically gives five to ten members of his team the authority to provide informations about facts,
2. publically orders this members to post here once a week at least,
3. publishes photos of these members at the DVP-website including names and
4. urges them to post here under their real names like I myself do.

What do you propose to be added to that list?

Sir_Realist, what do you think of this proposal? And please my former question I asked you to Brian Feeney.

No problem if opinions and the like are discussed - but there is another thread with initial post from harbinger1337 where I had to recognize that I misunderstood something. That thread or in general such threads not initialized by people claiming to be DVP-member are more adequate for opinions to be discussed I think.


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Post    Posted on: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:52 pm
Herr Augustin?

I don't know what the German word for fraud is, or the German word for scam, nor the German word for incompetence.
But they must be in the German lexicon.
For instance: Herr Augustin?...If you paid somebody 10,000 Euros to purchase
a Volkswagen car, and were 'promised' by the sales-person that it would be delivered
complete and in good working order by a certain month.
What would you think of the sales-person if he or she failed to keep their promise?
And, worse, what would you do if the Volkswagen was delivered without
a motor; a Volkswagen without a motor which you paid 10,000 Euros for?

Herr Augustin?... Is space travel and rocketry free of and exempt of criminal
activity? Is space travel/rocketry now or in the future going to be immune from fraud, or
criminal investment, or free of technical incompetence?
The answers are obvious: From your own German history [1943-1945], the birth
of spacetravel and space rocketry involved POLITICAL CRIMINALS like Wernher Von Braun [who escaped prosecution], Heinrich Himmler, and the SS officer corps
who beat, starved, shot or hung those pitiful victims of NORDHAUSEN CONCENTRATION
CAMP worked to death manufacturing V2 space-rockets [they reached altitudes as
high as those required of the X-Prize]...
So it's EQUALLY obvious that sooner or later, if not already, scam artists, the criminal
element, or technical incompetents will try to get into this new field of engineering/economic endeavour called "CIVILIAN SPACE TRAVEL".
Auf Weidershen.


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Post    Posted on: Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:13 pm
Monseigneur Ekkehard,

In response to your post addressed to me...
Since you've taken it upon yourself to remind me the history of this thread, please let me
return the favor. Sir_Realist (a play on words, surreal meaning other than real) offered to
give us information about DVP, specifically stating he could not provide facts. This resulted
in his welcome being less than warm. But many of us, including myself, asked questions in hope
of receiving at least some information. What Sir_Realist provided in return was, shall we say, surreal.

So the thread drifted. We chatted about various things. I stated that I felt
Brian Feeney shouldn't make the claim of being just behind Scaled because he is far behind
Scaled. I listed facts demonstrating that Brian was far behind Scaled. You recommended only
discussing facts rather than speculations, yet seemed to challenge my post. OK! Now you
state(repeatedly),

"To repeat it - I wanted to indicate that I don't claim to be speaking of facts."

You go on to say,

"As a consequence in this thread no opinions, speculations and the like should be posted"

And you say,

" If Sir_Realist really is a member of DVP he might report his experience during this thread to the others
and they too might be discouraged... - and this will make it harder to get facts from DVP."

But the only fact that Sir_Realist has given is is that DVP team members have signed an agreement forbidding
them from providing facts to us, in the very first post of this thread.

I don't think there is any concern that the quality of your English is making the conversation difficult.
As you speak textbook English and I vernacular, yours is in fact higher quality. I also think that
where grammar and word choice do cause a bit of extra thought, most people will come to the same conclusion
about whether words like "might" and "perhaps" indicate a speculative or factual statement. I look forward
to your next essay on existentialism, the relative nature of reality, public relations deception programs,
or whatever it is you are talking about. Cheers, /jd


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Post    Posted on: Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:40 pm
I am a bit disappointed that this thread has not generated any new information on whats happening with the wild fire rocket, as I suspect everyone is.

Whether SIr Realist is actually in the know is debatable so how about giving us some facts (anything will do) as there's not much on the DaVinchi website. Since it appears beyond anyones ability, including mine, to frame a question that can be answered by yourself why not tell us what you are able to? Anything would be nice.

If you cant tell us anything then this entire thread is somewhat pointless. I suggest people make up their own minds whether they believe what is said or not but analysing everything and anything concerned with DVP's motives or aims serves no real purpose.

I for one would like to see wild fire fly just to show the world there is more than one private spacecraft out there. I would also like to see Starchaser fly as its been decades since the UK has had a credible rocket and Steve Bennet has kept the flag flying (sorry about the patriotism there but we in the UK havent got a mojave spaceport to walk round).

Anyway how about it Sir Realist have you got anything to tell us?


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Post    Posted on: Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:25 pm
Hello, Virgair

from the use of the word "fraud" in an awsome post by Dr_Keith_H recently in a thread under "The Spaceflight Cafe" I suppose that the german translation is "Betrug" ,the english word I don't knowfor scam and the german translation of "incompetence" is "Inkompetenz" which has been incorporated out of Latin directly in the meaning similar to "missing required capabilities, knowledge, consciousness, attention"
But they must be in the German lexicon.

The example of the purchase of a Volkswagen or another car in Germany concerns a real contract valid by law. If the sales-person wouldn't deliver the car he has to give back the 10,000 Euro to the customer or would be taken to court for his crime. If he wouldn't deliver not to do a crime but because of delay there are at least to possibilities:

a) He didn't know of a possible delay and informs the customer at early as possible. No crime, no court, no fraud - everything is allright.

b) Identical to a) except the information as early as possible. No crime, no court - but the customer may dissatisfied and critizise the saleman or the ca-shop. Perhaps he decides to cancel the contract which by law will be no problem - he will try to by at another shop. But many customers would give another chance. If the salesman or the shop will repeat the fault concerning too much a number of contracts he will loose too much customers and disappear from the markte.

c) He did know at the moment of purchase that a delay is to be expected and says that at once. Everything will be allright. If the customer asks for a probable time until delivery hhe will give an estimation but explicitly no guarantee. If the customer accepts the will be an agreement to keep in touch concerning the date of delivery some way. This is not part of the contract. No crime, no court.

d) He did know at the moment of purchase that a delay is to be expected and doesn't say that. The customer will feel dissatisfied when the delay occurs and will critizise the salesman because he doesn't inform him. No crime, no court - but not allright.

But I never heard of a contrct between DVP and a person that has purchased a suborbital travel from DVP. Did there be such apurcahse? This would be interesting and be a fact I had to do detailed considerations on.

In the case of missing the motro all is simila. If it would go to court the court would use the normal expections of cuastomers as a basis I think and decide that the salesman is very wrong. But it would be a civil case I suppose and not a crime case. The salesman can be wrong because of "Inkompetenz". If it would be proved that he really is "kompetent" than the case could be a crime case too.

But all this doesn't aplly to DVP if there is no purchase or a contract to purchase.


You ask "Is space travel and rocketry free of and exempt of criminal
activity? Is space travel/rocketry now or in the future going to be immune from fraud, or
criminal investment, or free of technical incompetence?" No, it is not - but fraud and criminal investment are defined only by laws -so the doing of DVP had to be compared to all the laws before it could be considered to be criminal. Technical competence or incompetence is depending on definitions too - these definitions are difereing from country to country and are going to be changed sometimes. In Germany there the "DIN-Normen" - they are revised sometimes. As far as I know noone is forced by law to fullfill them - the market forces to sometimes.

You are right concerning german history - but DVP shouldn't be compared to Hitler and the Nationalsocialists - they are no politicians, no tottalitarists and no ideologists. And they don't try to rise a dictatorship and abuse of space travels. And in Germany the most of us are very far off Nationalsocialism - except a few far mislead young people not using their brains.



Helllo, joel,

first of all I'm sure that my English is far away from high quality. In discussions, debates or simply conversaations the meanings of english words are valid you and the other english natve speakers are used to I myself often will be wrong concerning what this meaning is becasue I#m missing experiences by living among people speaking English only.

Please leave me some time to answer to your post - I have to think it over a little bit. Only one point I want to respond to here. From my ppoint of view you are right in claiming that you are using facts as part of your basis - but Ihave been missing some facts and another part of your basis seem to be interpretations.

It's a fact that DVP is behind Scaled - it's a fact too, that today they are 4.5 months behind 21. of June and 1 month behind 4th of October. But they have been reported to have given a 60 days-notice and to do a launch valid to win the 10,000,000 $ - without any test-launch. If they really had done the valid launch at 2nd of October this valid launch had been 3 days behind Scaled's first valid launch only - that i couldn't have considered to be "far behind". Fact however is that a few days before that first valid launch (and before Scaled's first valid launch too) they informed the public of a hold
- and they informed the public of the reason of that hold: delay of a delivery.

The announcements and the informations are real facts. Now the facts they informed us about could be doubted to be real facts because we cannot check the facts. So to believe theier informations can be considered to be speculation. Now have a look at my profile now - it's a fact that I provide relevant informations there. I don't know wether everyone does believe this informations. But everone who believes them - has he checked them to be true? Can he do that? Has anyone seen the certificates of that university attesting me to be a Political Economist? Has anyone the cahnce to check iit? If beliefe in DVP's informations earlier this year the informations in my profile have to be considered to be speculations too. This valid for evryones profiel here. But we all trust each other concerning the profiles - and that should continue. So despite all dissappointments DVP's informations should be trusted until they are proved to be wrong by finding out facts (independently at best).

You are right subjectively - I prefer to try not to be subjective and not to do subjective judgements but that has nothing to do with you. Trying to be objective I'm faced to obstacles to agrre to you.

All this is good reason to give Sir_Realist a chance. He can give facts concerning questions not part of his list. I'm interested in such questions.Others may be not - allright. It's allright too, if they simply say "Sir_Realist, your answer leaves me dissatisdied" or "...disappointed" and then cease to post to his thread. The word "we" tends to be a problem - at least I myself don't feel dissatisfied or dissapointed yet.



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Post    Posted on: Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:39 pm
Long interesting posts, but a waste of good finger energy. 8)

Let us not split hairs over definations and motives. It is kicking a storm in a teacup. We are not BF / DVP or Scaled for the matter so why they do what they do is pointless. What BF/DVP has done (or NOT done) is free for all to see and to make up their own minds.

There are three groups of people here. People who are still supportive of DVP, people who are openly skeptical for a long time, and the recently disappointed/disillusioned supporters. Choose your camp.


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Post    Posted on: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:17 pm
But koxinga and Andy,
This is the liveliest thread in the whole forum! Have you ever seen the MontyPython skit about the Department of Arguements? "This is not an arguement!" "It is too!" repeat... I've been having a good time saying the same thing over and over again.

And my main fakey homie (means good friend in inner-city English) Ekkehard, do you have a sweet-heart? If so, take her out to dinner and a show tonight instead of typing in another long essay. Cheers, /jd


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Post    Posted on: Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:01 am
Here's my take on it:

Has DVP created vaporware and then gone out and said that it's real hardware and claimed that they could launch before they're really capible of doing so? Sure. Then again, who hasn't, besides Scaled? At least Da Vinci has made some real hardware; the ballon, the final design, whatever the heck that thing at rollout was. That's a whole lot more than more than two thirds of the former X Prize competitors can claim. At least DVP has a decent (50/50 or better) chance of making it to 100K within the next year or so, something that IMHO only five other competitors (Scaled, Canadian Arrow, ARCA, STC, and Armadillo) can do. Out of those, three likely won't even try (Scaled because of work on SS2, STC because of work on a hybrid version of Rubicon, and Armadillo because JC has repeatedly said that they are NOT going to fly until a private VTVL spaceport is opened), so DVP deserves some credit. Should they be scolded for arm-waving? Probably, but they should also be applauded for the amount of progress they've achieved.

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Post    Posted on: Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:24 am
You forgot Starchaser.


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Post    Posted on: Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:22 pm
Hello, joel,

to continue my last answer to you:

The reason why I recommended to discus DVP only based on facts is that this would prevent unjustified accuses and the like - it would reduce the danger of not intended and unjustified hurtings. And the pressure on DVP to do muc things better than in the past would be much higher. Objectively given facts are a common basis for DVP and all here together - nobody could escape from facts. On the other side from opinions and speculations etc. everyone allways can escape easyly. That has nothing to do with rolls - and not with courts and the like. To base doing, accuses and the like on objectively given facts mostly if not only has been an important element of my education in my youth.

What can be done very cautiously is to add causal logic - cautiously because that requires sufficient theoretical knowledges and it would be better to put a question mark behind the results. That should be done concerning most of conclusions because everone could fail in his conclusions...

So everyone here can and should his own considerations - but he shouldn't angryly or annoyed argue against others coming to opposite results but ask for the reasons, the ways that have lead him to that opposite or different results. (May be my posts seemed to be angry or annoyed too - sorry for that, I never have been angry or annoyed; I have been searching for correct english words and the right way to express my goal and sorrows in English.)

The subtile and slight differences between informations about facts and the circumstance that the information itself is a fact too needn't to be repeated I suppose.

You comments concerning "...drifted..." and "...various things..." and your short recapitulation of the thread is very good - I like it.

One subtile but relevant problem seems to be involved in the discussions about DVP - different "opinions" about the question what is to be considered as a fact or not. May be an obstacle...



Hello, koxinga,

good comment what you posted Saturday in the afternoon.



Dipl.-Volkswirt (bdvb) Augustin (Political Economist)


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