Community > Forum > All other competitions > Open Letter to Da Vinci

Open Letter to Da Vinci

Posted by: bad_astra - Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:57 pm
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 48 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Open Letter to Da Vinci 
Author Message
Moderator
Moderator
avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:23 am
Posts: 3745
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Post    Posted on: Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:34 am
mrmorris,

my last post didn't have anything to do with excuses - I just have been explaining objectively given reasons and real experiences.


I myself have been a volunteer a long time by doing useful things for my sports club. It worked well as long as i did it. When I termineted I had to realize that those others volunteers doing it now caused damages by doing less of that work I had done. They do other things but they cause failures concerning my volunteer work - they don't see the essentials and they are not interested in them but they claim for te advantages. They are really good volunteers each sports club like mine is based on

In the Federation of German Economists - bdvb - I'm doing work as a volunteer too - and the experience is quite another than in my sports club. Failures by accident only and actively removed by the work of our little bureau managed by an entrepreneur who is a member of the Federation since more than four decades. Only five people or so are doing work in that bureau and the removal of failures is done a way working well and hurting nobody.

At all this I am looking as an economist having experiences from my work I'm paid for.

So my explanation(s) don't include any excuse but figure out what problems and difficulties Bran Feeney might have to handle. None of us who isn't an insider to his work and to his team can judge his management and his skills to manage a team of volunteers.

And I want to assist all his volunteers - volunteer work is harder than payed work for a lot of reasons partly mentioned in my posts.

Even the mails form Brian Feeney posted in this thread and to be read under www.xprizenews.org show that there have been failures I know to be typical and unpreventable for volunteer teams. All he is explaining in the emails I mentioned I myself have been forced to explain too when I volunteered in my sports club. Many volunteers are naturally short on time and on money - they have to do payed work eight hours a day - then they have to be in their families and to manage their home. And only after that all is "done" they can do volunteer work - two or three hours in average a day and not more.


What I said abive forces the volunteers to do small things as quickly as possible. Brian Feeney explained things in his emails that should have been explained already when the photos etc. have been posted and when the website has been published. But this requires thoughts, work, reading emails containing questions and criticisms concerning the website - if his team most of the tiem consisted only of thos few people to be seen at theri site they couldn't manage to post the explanations earlier - they had to work on Wild Fire and the balloon to win the XPRIZE. And Brian Feeney had to direct the team - he cannot direct the work on the website too. And a professional website doesn't complete the Wild Fire.

That's a kind of situation failures concerning websites and public relations are to be considered as less relevant. The discussions are the miserable fate of volunteers - so we all should honor them the more.





Dipl.-Volkswirt (bdvb) Augustin (Political Economist)


Back to top
Profile
Space Station Commander
Space Station Commander
User avatar
Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 8:59 am
Posts: 578
Location: Zurich
Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:34 am
Brian Feeney wrote:
Before the question is raised aka engine testing and photos, I explained in the long email that we had (and still do have) a relationship with Microcosm. They were the engine of choice until it was clear we could not aford it. As mentioned before the photos remained on the site to show where we had been in the engine program. The technical docs on the site (posted about a year ago) showed the switch to the hybrid engine. Microcosm and oursleves had reasons for removing their name (other refernces) from the photos, even though people had identified them as early as late 2000. Microcosm has given us permission now to update the site giving them full credit.


Hi Brian,

Actually it looks very much like you are giving them only half-credit. So I have a question (it's something I have raised before) and it's in the spirit of improving the "tone" of your website.

Does Lorne Bradt work for Microcosm or is he one of your volunteers? I find it improbable that Bradt took all the photographs that he is credited with on your site ... in particular the images of Microcosm-developed rockets that are used by your website with apparent permission from Microcosm. The only likely legal explanation is that Bradt purchased ownership of the images from either the photographer or from Microcosm.

If Lorne Bradt did not take those images or purchase the rights to them then perhaps the actual photographer of those images should be credited. If full ownership of the images in question belongs to Microcosm then references to Lorne Bradt should be removed.

I hope that I am wrong and Bradt does in fact own copyright to the images (and is therefor rightly credited with them on your webpages), but just in case I am right ....

Canadian copyright law as it applies to photographs wrote:
Copyright comes into existence automatically, at the time the work was created, and, in the case of most works, it continues until the end of the calendar year in which the author of the work dies (regardless of whether the author has sold or assigned the copyright in the work or not), and continues for an additional period of 50 years. There are some notable exceptions to this rule however. One such exception relates to photographs, which are protected by copyright from the time the photograph was taken, up until the end of the calendar year in which the photograph was taken , and for an additional period of 50 years (that is, the termination date of copyright protection for photographs is linked to the date the photograph was taken, and not the date of the photographer's death).


That came from the pen of a certain Mr Philip B. Kerr of the Bowler Kerr Collins law firm in Ottowa. It's a couple of years out of date, but I'm sure the rules haven't changed appreciably since 2002.

Of course I'm no expert in copyright law and I would be unsurprised to learn there is some ameliorating vagary attached to this situation of which I am unaware. I'm just recommending you look into it.

All the best with your future,

DKH.

_________________
Per aspera ad astra


Back to top
Profile
Launch Director
Launch Director
avatar
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:25 am
Posts: 19
Location: Sweden
Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:35 am
I suppose we will know the following weeks, right? Personally I believe they can make a flight attempt soon, but I could be wrong, and I realise that. Before they announced they were close to launch I had considered them as one of the teams that had a shot at winning or at least come close. A while back I also thought that Starchaser and Canadian Arrow were long ahead of da Vinci, but lately I have learned that Starchaser doesn't have a finished rocket (they're working on it though) and Canadian Arrow is taking more time on tests than I thought. Furthermore, the Armadillo team were further ahead in development than I actually thought from the start. Anyway, it's hard to tell what the teams are up to, as some are very quiet about things and some announce every little thing. As I said, we will soon see who is right or wrong.


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:37 pm
Posts: 39
Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:15 pm
Brian Feeney wrote:
Hi again,

Before the question is raised aka engine testing and photos, I explained in the long email that we had (and still do have) a relationship with Microcosm. They were the engine of choice until it was clear we could not aford it. As mentioned before the photos remained on the site to show where we had been in the engine program. The technical docs on the site (posted about a year ago) showed the switch to the hybrid engine. Microcosm and oursleves had reasons for removing their name (other refernces) from the photos, even though people had identified them as early as late 2000. Microcosm has given us permission now to update the site giving them full credit.


Oh please! :roll:
Brian is trying to justify his using Microcosm's pictures on his
website.

No one cares about that.
The problem is that he has tried to pass off otherpeople's work as DVPs work.
Brian, care to comment?


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:37 pm
Posts: 39
Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:20 pm
Ppeople were actually monetarily affected by DVP lying.
There were people that bought flights, booked Hotel rooms and non-refundable registration packages, and scheduled their time around the Oct. 2nd date.

There is also the matter of the merchants in Kindersley, who
did promotion for the launch, and will now have to spend extra to do it
again.

You can't tell me that Feeney only figured out 8 days before his launch
that
he wasn't going to be there, it was not a last minute glitch. That is
deceit plain and simple, only satisfying Feeney's ego. And it should be
unforgivable by everyone.

Would Brian care to respond to this ?


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:37 pm
Posts: 39
Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:39 pm
I keep reading on this board how they are struggling, and how they have overcome all these obstacles as a volunteer team.
I believe the majority of xprize teams are made up of volunteers.
And they seem to have all accomplished more than the DVP team with their boasted 800 plus volunteers.


Last edited by Number2 on Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Back to top
Profile
Space Station Member
Space Station Member
User avatar
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:16 am
Posts: 322
Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:12 pm
Number 2,

You aren't "Entitled" to know every little detail of what each team has been up to. No one is, except possibly the X-Prize foundation. The foundation has been very good at weeding out pretenders, and they felt no need to do so with DVP. They treated the launch announcement like the real deal. Also, DVP was invited to the meetings of teams which were doing real work.

So even though you may not know what they were up to, that doesn't mean they haven't been working. As far as cancelling their launch date, would you have been more satiisfied if he'd launched with an inferior made pressure sphere and died in the attempt? Launch dates get cancelled all the time.


Back to top
Profile YIM
Spaceflight Participant
Spaceflight Participant
avatar
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:52 pm
Posts: 62
Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 04, 2004 6:01 pm
They have announced they have a launch license that runs to the beginning of November. If we have a flight by then -- then 95% of the questions will be answered (although at that point I'd really be interested in a "DVP -- Behind the Scenes" show that explained the logic behind the extreme secrecy). If they don't launch by the time the license expires -- it doesn't answer anything -- but it would certainly add to the perception that the lack of smoke really does mean there's no fire. In any event -- waiting three to four weeks for an answer isn't any great hardship.


Back to top
Profile
Space Station Member
Space Station Member
User avatar
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:16 am
Posts: 322
Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:42 pm
suppesedly DVP has a book coming out next year, so yeah there is a behind the scenes look eventually.


Back to top
Profile YIM
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:37 pm
Posts: 39
Post    Posted on: Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:27 am
“Number 2,
You aren't "Entitled" to know every little detail of what each team has been up to. No one is, except possibly the X-Prize foundation. The foundation has been very good at weeding out pretenders, and they felt no need to do so with DVP.”

Who said anything about knowing every little detail? Pay attention.
I have only pointed out facts based on information that they, the Da Vinci team, Brian has provided. It is not very hard to connect the dots.
Its not rocket science (which is good for them)

“ Also, DVP was invited to the meetings of teams which were doing real work.”

What is your point and how dose this fit into context?

”So even though you may not know what they were up to, that doesn't mean they haven't been working.”

PROOVE IT!

“As far as cancelling their launch date,would you have been more satiisfied if he'd launched with an inferior made pressure sphere and died in the attempt? Launch dates get cancelled all the time.”

This is not a hard concept to understand. Stay with me….
·If you get a million bucks (or what ever they got), and you don’t actually have anything other than a empty shell,
·30 plus days until the date that you said you would be ready for.
·Scramble to buy, build and learn everything that you said you already have done and know.
·Time is ticking away.
·You got to have a thought, an idea, even a brain wave that you might need more time than 30 days to learn to build and test a rocket and its support equipment.

The problem I see is way too much credit is extended to these guys.

Sure Brian is responding to these posts, but he has still not given a straight answer to anything.
He seems like a master of double talk, He was recently quoted on a Canadian news program as saying they have a
“Not incomplete vehicle”
A what?
This is a Double negative. A tactic used to dance around question that you don’t want to answer.
Brian has created answers that twist the meaning of the question, or totally go off on a different tangent.
As for the infamous engine photos, The question was why pose someone else’s work as your own.
Not How did the come about or who owns the rights, or the deal they made with Microcosm.
The whole issue with these guys is the Misrepresentation.

This is the latest quote form Brian after todays SS1 winning flight.
"We have stood there neck and neck with Burt Rutan over eight years, and to only be a couple of weeks apart, that's still OK," :roll: :cry: :roll:

I am done with this topic.


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
User avatar
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:34 am
Posts: 27
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Post Flyin' Brian   Posted on: Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:55 pm
Please read my other posts on this subject. I'm no rocket science expert, but anyone with a few synapses still firing should understand by now that Flyin' Brian...won't be flyin'. If he does, he'll be Dyin' Flyin' Brian.

I don't even know what to say anymore. What really ticked me off was that they took up time during the last webcast to interview this snake oil salesman. If you don't get the vibe from listening to him talk that he's a flim-flam man, well...I have some beach property in Wyoming that I'd just love you to take a look at.

Come on people....don't you get it yet?

1. Succeed or fail, goldenpalace.com gets publicity. Probably even more if he actually flies and dies in a spectacular fashion.

2. He trucked around that Plan 9 From Outer Space mock-up all over Canada trying to drum up loose change from anyone who would listen.

3. He hasn't shown anything of substance to anyone and still insists he's close to launch.

4. He hasn't had any manned tests and intends to launch it manned the first time. NOBODY WHO HAS ANY SANITY AT ALL WOULD EVER DO THIS!
Unless of course he has a death wish or.....

5. OR...he's never had any intention to launch, only to get publicity...mainly because....ahem...cough cough....THERE'S NOTHING TO LAUNCH!!!

I have some info from previous posts on how to contact the folks at Kindersley to monitor whether anything is arriving there. We'll be checking regularly to ferret out this info because we want this farce, deception, fraud...whatever you want to call it, to stop. It really damages the reputations of everyone involved in the X Prize and the current efforts being made to encourage private space travel. The effort doesn't need the bad publicity and the seeming collaboration with a charlatan of his ilk to stain the incredible strides that are being made by many of the teams.

Maybe he could hook up with the guy who's posting on the forums about building a time machine and start collecting cash in Canada for that. It has just as much chance of getting off the ground as Not-So-Flyin' Brian has of getting his current project off the ground. You have three weeks of permit time left Brian...it's time to show your hand or fold.....and stop trying to pull the wool over peoples' eyes.

I hear the band instruments are finally on the way......

_________________
Because wherever you go....there you are.


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:26 am
Posts: 44
Location: Switzerland
Post    Posted on: Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:53 am
What I'm wondering is why DVP doesn't just show us pictures now of their spacescraft. The X-Prize is won, they are financed, they have a license and "they will fly within this month". And according to themselves everything except only a couple of parts are missing. So there isn't any reason anymore to keep up this high level of secrecy. If they are so close to launching, why don't they just shut everyone up by making some shots of their practically finished spaceship and post them? What do they have to lose at this point by doing that?

_________________
For every complex problem there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong. - Henry Louis Mencken


Back to top
Profile
Moderator
Moderator
avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:23 am
Posts: 3745
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Post    Posted on: Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:47 pm
Missing knowledge of facts speaking against them assume that all Brian Feeney says and all that has been reported under www.xprizenews.org is real and right.

Then this means that they may be very very busy because time is running until their license termites and they may have to do a lot to install all the parts they have been missing according to an earlier article. Take into account transportation too, orgainzation and coordination.

I now from experience by my job that all has to be reorganized and coordinated by new ways when it suddenly has to be done in a hurry becuase of sudden unexpected shortcuts of time.

mrmorris, this is not an excuse - an excuse isn't required. Brian Feeney only can be judged if there is knowledge of his decisions and his doing and all details of the real sitution seen from his point and the point of his team and all this is compared under the aspect wether he and his people have done what has been possible to achieve their goal and second to fulfill the claims of the public.



Dipl.-Volkswirt (bdvb) Augustin (Political Economist)


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:07 am
Posts: 29
Post    Posted on: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:06 am
Now that the snow has started to fly in Kindersley, it looks like DVP has yet another good excuse to scrub until spring. After all, their launch approval is more than likely tied to that location. Not to mention that their permit conveniently runs out at the end of the month.

I'm going with Brian is a semi-con artist. This is no accident, but part of a plan. The logic goes something like this as to why DVP stated that they were 'in the hunt.'

During the period of time after the Scaled announcement of their X-prize attempt and the attempt itself, the Xprize would be at the peak of publicity. Announcing that the Wildfire would be ready to launch was a way to get sponsorship as well as publicity. It worked. What was the real cost? Some lost credibitlity. But if you're Brian Feeney, this might be acceptable since otherwise the DVP would be dead in the water with no funds. In the meantime, Brian knows that winter is hitting Kindersley soon, so all he needs to do is fashion enough excuses to last for a month, and viola, he can't launch because of the weather and his permit's run out.

As for the X-prize comittee's publicity of DVP's attempt as proof that Wildfire is further along than it appears, this is also faulty logic. Given the X-prizes reluctance to throw out non-competitors such as Discraft, Bristol, etc. because it would have diminished the competition, I would not surprised to learn that they had just taken Brian on his word. After all, having a horse race was a lot more dramatic and garnered more publicity that the reality that a single team was far, far in the lead.

Now, Feeney at least has $$ and can work over the winter months to ready Wildfire for flight in the spring - with real tests etc. That is, if the DVP team is truly serious about coming out of make-believe computer land and building some real hardware. My prediction is we won't see a manned Wildfire launch before Spring, at best. If nothing else, I doubt Brian is going to risk his neck w/o the $10M prize.

Brian, at least throw us a bone and do an unmanned launch. Or hey, give us some real evidence you're doing something. Else, before you can say "Dan Rather" you're going to be debunked.


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
User avatar
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:34 am
Posts: 27
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Post Favorite Flyin' Brian Moment   Posted on: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:32 pm
My favorite FB moment was when he said he felt that being just a step behind Rutan's team after all this time and all their money was pretty good to him. All I can say is...WOW.
Yes...the snow is falling in Kindersley and once that happens, things become quite unpredictable there weather-wise. I fear there will be no Magic Helmet sightings for quite some time. This seems to follow the script that has been set by Flyin' Brian, partially because there is some disagreement as to whether there is even hardware to fly but I think also because Flyin' Brian does not wish to metamorphose into Dyin' Flyin' Brian as there has been no concrete real-condition testing of his hardware...if there is any hardware. In the software world, there is a word for this...it's called "vaporware", you know....smoke. This is the same type of smoke that's being blown up the posteriors of everyone watching this snake oil medicine show starring Not So Flyin' Brian.

Could it be that the band instruments are now on back-order???

_________________
Because wherever you go....there you are.


Back to top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ] 
 

Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


© 2014 The International Space Fellowship, developed by Gabitasoft Interactive. All Rights Reserved.  Privacy Policy | Terms of Use