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Reasons for the Restriction to american firms

Posted by: Ekkehard Augustin - Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:55 pm
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Reasons for the Restriction to american firms 
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Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:37 am
We will probably have to what until the final rule are set. Since any thing else will just be speculation. I hope you are right Ekkehard Augustin It would be nice to have as much talent as possible on this task. Having them put a base in the US will help in cutting down on the red tape. I think: :? I hope :? but it is a lot easier then when you have to deal with to different countries.


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Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:28 pm
"LOS ANGELES - A Las Vegas hotel magnate who is hoping to build the world's first commercial space stations on Tuesday launched a challenge offering $50 million to the creators of the first privately funded spaceship to reach orbit"

which is limited to U.S.-based companies....:roll:

Where is the Orteig'spirit, who offered his prize to the aviator(s) able to join non-stop New-York to Paris OR Paris to New-York ? French aviators were more than accepted on that time by Orteig. But today even accepted, we are out... :(

But, we have to reconize that he offered his prize with some restrictions :

"The competition is open to aviators of any allied nationality holding an F.A.I. certificate." (from Conditions, Rules and Regulations for the Raymond Orteig Prize; 1925)
Aviators must have allied nationality: Germans were out of the scope...

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Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:49 pm
Two words, people -- "Technology Transfer". Bigelow wants a winner that can provide an ongoing launch service to his space stations. His primary space station goal is **not** tourism, but technology. He's planning to rent space out to corporations to perform high-tech, low-G experiments. This is technology of the type that the US government has massive restrictions on exporting out of the country. Even if the technology *could* be exported out of the country -- the paperwork and expenses required to do this would add overhead to each and every launch.

Therefore -- he needs a firm to win that will not bring export restrictions into play. The russians could very likely create him a low-cost vehicle that does exactly what he needs for his space stations (like Kliper). However -- after they won, he then couldn't *use* their services.

Bigelow isn't restricting the competitors to American firms due to elitism, but due to business requirements.


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Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:18 pm
it's DARPA DOD bullshit :P

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Post    Posted on: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:40 am
mrmorris,

you are providing a very good explanation.

But what then is the difference to the fact that a european section is to be docked to the ISS and that a russian section is already docked to the ISS too?

These dockings doesn't meaning nothing else than that ESA and the Russian know the US docking technology. Or are they using components provided by US firms who are adding them too? Then this could be done in the case of spacecrafts too.

This is an additional quetsion.



Dipl.-Volkswirt (bdvb) Augustin (Political Economist)


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Post    Posted on: Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:10 pm
Ekkehard Augustin wrote:
But what then is the difference to the fact that a european section is to be docked to the ISS and that a russian section is already docked to the ISS too?


Well the short answer is that the US government makes the rules.... and they also break them when it's in their interest to do so.

The complete ISS story is much more complicated than that. Originally it was going to be a completely US space station (called Space Station Freedom). They spent years designing it, re-redesigning it, and re-re-designing it (going way over budget and producing zero hardware). Eventually it was decided for budgetary and technology reasons to include Russia (the most experienced space station builders in the world). Once they decided they needed Russia -- including other nations only made sense.

All of that is beside the point. The only way Bigelow's idea will come to fruition is if he can get the stations up there, and supply them routinely and cheaply. Anything which adds to the cost or complexity of the launches is to be avoided. It's certainly possible that he could apply for exemptions to the export controls for some payloads, but it would almost certainly be a recurring cost.

In addition, there is **no way** that he would be allowed to launch government payloads on non-US boosters. Bigelow has to be thinking that DARPA and DOD will want to put experiments on his stations. Even partially government funded experiments such as US universities and medical research teams might be restricted to using domestic boosters (not sure on this one).

At any rate -- there's definitely sound business reasons for restricting the prize to American firms.


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Post    Posted on: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:33 am
Of course he will have DARPA and DOD pacakges. They have already asked SS1 for space to do experiments. As far as I can tell (having only worked for the DOD for 7 years), they would put their experiments on a giant flying monkey as long as it was US and went into space.

:D

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Post    Posted on: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:02 pm
dan,

Just curious, how would DOD and DARPA view the successful SS1 flight?


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Post    Posted on: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:55 pm
danInSpace wrote:
Of course he will have DARPA and DOD pacakges. They have already asked SS1 for space to do experiments. As far as I can tell (having only worked for the DOD for 7 years), they would put their experiments on a giant flying monkey as long as it was US and went into space.

:D


Er... how many giant flying monkeys do we have? Or is that classified?

Always nice to see my tax dollars at work, even if it often drives me bananas.

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Post    Posted on: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:09 pm
danInSpace wrote:
... they would put their experiments on a giant flying monkey as long as it was US and went into space.


Does the monkey have to be a native-born American, or will a naturalized monkey be acceptable?


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Post    Posted on: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:05 pm
Well, you see it is the LOO project. They made a special helmet that when the general puts it on the monkeys come and pick up the package and move it to space. However it only seems to work 3 times for each general? Go figure. (This will hopefully be funnier to those of you who read the wizard of oz)

They only have 1/4 sized prototype monkeys, though. :D

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Post    Posted on: Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:07 am
mrmorris wrote:
danInSpace wrote:
... they would put their experiments on a giant flying monkey as long as it was US and went into space.


Does the monkey have to be a native-born American, or will a naturalized monkey be acceptable?

I think the flying monkey only need to be FDA approved. No artificial flying monkeys allowed. :D


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Post    Posted on: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:11 pm
mrmorris wrote:
Two words, people -- "Technology Transfer". Bigelow wants a winner that can provide an ongoing launch service to his space stations. His primary space station goal is **not** tourism, but technology. He's planning to rent space out to corporations to perform high-tech, low-G experiments. This is technology of the type that the US government has massive restrictions on exporting out of the country. Even if the technology *could* be exported out of the country -- the paperwork and expenses required to do this would add overhead to each and every launch.

Therefore -- he needs a firm to win that will not bring export restrictions into play. The russians could very likely create him a low-cost vehicle that does exactly what he needs for his space stations (like Kliper). However -- after they won, he then couldn't *use* their services.

Bigelow isn't restricting the competitors to American firms due to elitism, but due to business requirements.

You've got it exactly right. Technology Transfer is always an issue, even among US companies working jointly on US government military programs. It is not unusual for some companies to be competitors on one program while similtaneously are partners on another program. So Technology Transfer of Company secrets are very carefully written into the US Government contracting documents.

Without the US Government directly involved, which defeats the purpose of a PRIVATE SPACE PRIZE, this eliminates one very big headache from the US Bureacrats.

One the other hand, maybe Bigelow, is very American-centered and wants to promote American private space programs only. Is that short-sighted? Maybe so.

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Post Prize restricted to company "domiciled" in U.S.   Posted on: Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:04 pm
I wrote the Retuers story Orteig quoted, so I thought I'd weigh in here.

Bigelow told me that America's Space Prize competition will be restricted to companies "domiciled" in the U.S. This means that the teams have to be based in the U.S., but they don't have to be run by Americans or use American money.

He has no problem with foreign investment or with people other than Americans working on the winning vehicle, but he'd like the winner to be an American company. He feels the U.S. has fallen behind the other spacefaring countries and he'd like to use his influence to help the U.S. catch up.

The reason he's offering the prize is to create a vehicle capable of reaching his planned commercial space stations, the first of which he says he can launch by 2010--hence the 2010 deadline for the prize.

It's important to note that Bigelow is entirely self-funded. He needs no marketing or PR to get his projects off the ground, and that's why information about his projects is sparse, and why he has no PR director.


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Post    Posted on: Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:05 am
Very interesting and VERY encouraging, Belfiore. With your clarifications in mind, I can now begin to assemble my Bigelow Prize dream team...

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