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hrmmm..... is this real?

Posted by: Sigma - Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:56 am
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hrmmm..... is this real? 
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Post hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:56 am
http://www.emdrive.com/yang-juan-paper-2012.pdf

been reading about it, :S

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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:28 pm
Doubtful. If there is a real thrust and not an experimental error, most likely what it is doing is the standing EM field being generated is receiving a torque from geomagnetic field lines.

Problems are,
You can do the same thing with much less effort with a superconducting electromagnet.
and
It quickly loses effect the further away you go from a magnetic source (planet sun etc.). Might be useful in LEO station keeping but not much further beyond.


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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:54 pm
I believe it's probably a Lorenz force effect. We'd have to get it out of a magneto/gravitational field to test it.

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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:07 pm
*digs out thread from the grave*

Just read this and remembered that I had read about this here at the space fellowship!

Looks like the "EmDrive" might be real after all? (and apparently based on quantum vacuum effects)
Nasa validates 'impossible' space drive
Quote:
Nasa is a major player in space science, so when a team from the agency this week presents evidence that "impossible" microwave thrusters seem to work, something strange is definitely going on. Either the results are completely wrong, or Nasa has confirmed a major breakthrough in space propulsion.


Probably still too early to be sure, but interesting in any case.

I have recently also read about the "Q-thrusters" in a presentation by the NASA guy who also works on refining Alcubierre's Warp Drive equations. I really hope this turns out to be true and not another case of "CERN FTL neutrinos mistake".


btw, just for the record and to spare you guys searching, I also found two even older threads about the EmDrive:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10665
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11061

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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:52 pm
Meh. IF it were having a quantum effect, you would expect much higher power contained EM devices like laser, maser, x-ray machines etc. to have produced a noticed before "recoil".


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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:45 pm
JamesG wrote:
Meh. IF it were having a quantum effect, you would expect much higher power contained EM devices like laser, maser, x-ray machines etc. to have produced a noticed before "recoil".


I am not quite so certain laser's masers tend to be open systems and the way this was described on one of the sites as I understand it was a bouncing in an asymmetrical fashion of microwaves which occasionally hit the "virtual particles" that appear and disappear in a vacuum the kind of thing that has been empirically observed in the Casimir effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect so if I understand the hand waving and bits of clues given it seems that the microwaves are hitting the odd "virtual particles" while they temporarily exist and because of the asymmetrical shape of the microwave container there is a preferred side that gets hit by these "virtual particles" imparting momentum but as it at some time has to cancel out with its opposite "virtual anti particle" whose energies are no longer as balanced as when they first both appeared you are exchanging conservation of energy for conservation of momentum so individually they are both out of kilter but together it all adds up OK sort of if:-

If price of an orange and an apple are the same.

I rob an apple from Peter to give to Paul
And I rob an orange from Paul to give to Peter
Peter and Paul pat me on the back for giving them both a balanced diet. :wink: :twisted:

Now my understanding is that the Casimir effect is quite small and I am OK with them getting a few mNewtons out of a kilowatt with a fairly chunky volume of hardish vacuum but the one that would be a real game changer would be if Roger Shawyer is right and you can get 30-31.5 KiloNewtons from a Killowatt if you use super conducting materials in a similar combination which seems to be suggested in the linked article and slide share

http://www.gizmag.com/cannae-reactionle ... ion/33210/

http://www.slideshare.net/Stellvia/emdr ... esentation

It maybe too much to ask for this to be true but if it is it would mean that with liquid nitrogen super conductors and a bit of hard work it might be possible to build the kind of flying cars you see in Sci-Fi movies :D

Edited to add I should have said Peter has lots of apples and Paul has lots of oranges to make the analogy clearer.

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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:26 pm
There seems to be a recent set of videos links from the emdrive site with Roger Shawyer he does not mention the virtual particle idea maybe i read that on a site to do the the Chinese or American version he talks a bout Q calculations but does not show his working out the power of Q :wink: :twisted: but he does say interestingly that the Chinese have come at it from a different point of view but with similar outcomes and results.

http://www.emdrive.com/interview.html

The set of interviews also shows numbers when it is thought that solar powered power broadcasting satellites would be viable the numbers used seem to suggest if his system eventually works as advertised in the possible superconducting form then we could have green clean power in orbit at a tenth of the price of a nuclear power station down here.

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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:15 pm
Too much handwaving and too little effect. Until someone can tell me how to make my microwave oven launch itself off the kitchen counter, I'm not impressed.

and

Space Based Solar Power will NEVER be used because of its potential for accident or mischief.


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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:52 am
JamesG wrote:
Too much handwaving and too little effect. Until someone can tell me how to make my microwave oven launch itself off the kitchen counter, I'm not impressed.


I am hoping this is real but my sceptical side makes me think you are probably on the right lines that this might be a an interaction with the Earth's magnetic field tho I would hope that the guys and gals at NASA would be bright enough to do a test in a magnetically shielded room to exclude that possibility but you never know these days with budget cuts it maybe be a bit pricey to temporarily evict a decent sized S.Q.U.I.D. from its room for a test that would almost definitely exclude magnetic anomalous results. It could still be like the CERN FTL neutrinos mistake as Marcus mooted.

JamesG wrote:
Space Based Solar Power will NEVER be used because of its potential for accident or mischief.


Coal mines kill people we still dig coal.

Petrol vehicles kill people and we still extract petrol.

Nuclear reactors have killed people and there are still a lot of those running.

The possibly that Space Based Solar Power might actually kill a few people if the controls don't work properly or its deliberately sabotaged is not going to stop them being built if they become economical enough, energy is the lowest common denominator of our technological civilisation people will accept a certain level of risk to keep their creature comforts as has already been shown in the few examples above.

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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:09 am
You may have noticed that our civilization ("Western") has developed an ever increasing aversion to risk.

The idea of creating something is space that could enable someone to play "magnifying glass and ants" on entire cities does not strike me as an acceptable risk, and that is often the first thing that comes to mind to lay-people and their politicians who will write the check for any such project. Hence, they will never be built.


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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:24 pm
JamesG wrote:
You may have noticed that our civilization ("Western") has developed an ever increasing aversion to risk.

The idea of creating something is space that could enable someone to play "magnifying glass and ants" on entire cities does not strike me as an acceptable risk, and that is often the first thing that comes to mind to lay-people and their politicians who will write the check for any such project. Hence, they will never be built.


I agree that the tolerance for risk in "Western" civilisation has been declining but we are not the only game in town and Japan despite often being included as a member of the "Western" club has indicated it is all for Space Based Solar Power and has research funds going into even now while space launches are quite expensive. And that does not even consider China who is investing a lot into space these days they will need a lot of energy to continue their economies expansion and considering the environmental disasters they have had with air pollution in large areas of their country a clean green solution might appeal greatly to them and with their centralised government are quite likely to ignore minor protests, their military might even quite like a big ant magnifying glass especially one that could be justified as a clean green power supply. And if that happened "Western" risk aversion would be on the side of building our own for many reasons balance of Power in its many forms. :wink: :twisted:

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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:37 pm
Too many ifs.


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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:53 pm
JamesG wrote:
Too many ifs.

:) Well have to agree to disagree I hope you are wrong as I think it is a good idea and I think we could build one with enough safety features to give it an acceptable level risk to the majority but i agree it is a debatable point and different people have different levels of risk tolerance.

Back to the new drive its not looking good for it this article suggests that there could easily have been problems with measurement as it seemed to work a bit when it was not supposed too so either we have a new physics perpetual motion type of machine which with a glance at Occam's razor makes the brief flair of optimism diminish rapidly in me or they need to tighten up their testing quite a bit for a more indicative test one way or the other.

http://space.io9.com/a-new-thruster-pus ... rtgonzalez

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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:56 pm
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08/04 ... _in_weeks/

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Post Re: hrmmm..... is this real?   Posted on: Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:02 pm
We should get our guy Victor on the case. I'm sure he'll have it solved and propelling chairs and space shuttles in no time.


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