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PERMANENT, The Planetary Society and others

Posted by: box - Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:11 pm
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PERMANENT, The Planetary Society and others 
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Post Re: PERMANENT, The Planetary Society and others   Posted on: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:28 am
Yup. Unless you get it cleared by the US Dept. of State to export your system to those countries.


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Post Re: PERMANENT, The Planetary Society and others   Posted on: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:40 am
Are there any equivalent regulations in other countries?

I am wondering if it is still possible to cleverly engineer a project that would go around this barrier. Though I guess it could be just as easy to just get the clearance from the various government bodies of different countries. It is not like it's forbidden to send or sell such technologies, it is forbidden to do it without reporting it and getting a permit.

I am thinking of braking up the project into parts that can be exported freely and that are regulated. Then selectively open sourcing parts that can be freely shared, and parts that fall under ITAR could be developed by "cells" on both sides of the barrier in paralel without sharing of forbidden information.

As long as you make sure that the designs are modular and easy to integrate with one another, it shouldn't be a problem to run a partially open source space program across borders.

Then again if once the organisations gains legitimacy acquiring the permits to share designs covered by ITAR might be possible.

There is the whole issue of so called "enemies of the free world" acquiring advanced technologies, but I think it is quite clear that those so called "enemies of the free world" already have access to all the advanced technologies through simple black market routes, or their own research facilities.

Though maybe the reason for ITAR is actually economical, and not deffense related. The US doesn't want technologies it or people using it's services developed to freely be available to other nations without the US being able to get some monetary compensation for it.

In this case this is the exact issue of piracy in the music industry. The internet facilitates free movement of information, in case of the music industry it is intellectual property of the authors. One response is to forbid such activity /work against the system/, the other is to go with the trend and make use of rapid spread of freely shared materials /work with the system./

Anyway, any interesting projects or websites people see please post here.

I found something quite relevant: http://opensourceecology.org/

Probably most of you have already heard of this way before I did. But I thought it belongs here because of sheer "cooldom" :).

Overall that project is a lot like how I imagine "freespaceships" or its equivalent to work.

I am so far behind in the open source scene it's not funny. :) Though I guess people not born yet who will eventually be major players of this emerging field are even further behind so I shouldn't worry about my lack of awareness of what's already out there.

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Post Re: PERMANENT, The Planetary Society and others   Posted on: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:35 pm
box wrote:
Are there any equivalent regulations in other countries?


Yes. The UK has export license requirements and Russia has a government/industry bureau that handles it.

Quote:
I am wondering if it is still possible to cleverly engineer a project that would go around this barrier. Though I guess it could be just as easy to just get the clearance from the various government bodies of different countries. It is not like it's forbidden to send or sell such technologies, it is forbidden to do it without reporting it and getting a permit.


Yes, you can get it approved, it just takes time & redtape. The US law is "one way" as in it covers exports of technology, but it does not prohibit the import of it. So that is one "backdoor", of course it kind of hamstrings the process if you can only source foreign knowledge and hardware "blind" without being able to supply any information related to the overall project or it's technology.

Quote:
As long as you make sure that the designs are modular and easy to integrate with one another, it shouldn't be a problem to run a partially open source space program across borders.


Look up the "Sugar Shot Rocket" project, it is an international OS rocketry project.

Quote:
There is the whole issue of so called "enemies of the free world" acquiring advanced technologies, but I think it is quite clear that those so called "enemies of the free world" already have access to all the advanced technologies through simple black market routes, or their own research facilities.


It is getting less so now that so much advanced electronics and machinery manufacturing has been transferred to the PRC (who have no compulsion against selling anything to anyone). But there are some advanced specialized things like guidance, metallurgy, and general operations which hard to acquire.

Quote:
Though maybe the reason for ITAR is actually economical,


Nope, it's all political. Companies naturally preserve their competitive advantage. If anything ITAR is a handicap in competing with other nations, and creates barriers to entry for new entrants who want to cross national borders.

Quote:
In this case this is the exact issue of piracy in the music industry.


Not really. Different models. The information is the product in the music industry, where it is just the means to an end (a rocket) in aerospace. There is theft of IP (industrial espionage), but there is so much else required for aerospace that there are significant physical and logistical barriers to participation in a serious project (ie; more than model rockets). That is the big hurdle to overcome in any kind of open spacecraft project.


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I am so far behind in the open source scene it's not funny.


All of it is in it's infancy. Especially for non-software.


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Post Re: PERMANENT, The Planetary Society and others   Posted on: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:28 am
Hardware yes, Free/Open Source software is rather mature by now. There's open source software in use today that was originally written in the 1980's. Linux is the most-used operating system kernel in the world, running on anything from tiny embedded systems to supercomputers, as well as all Armadillo and SpaceX rockets. The web runs mostly on open source, there are hundreds of millions of Android smart phones in use, and so on.

Still, it's very encouraging to see the position Wikipedia has moved into and the OLPC, and all the open culture/creative commons stuff happening, and open hardware starting to take off as well. I was involved with the Open Graphics Project and the associated Open Hardware Foundation six years ago; that ended up being a bit too ambitious (although hardware was actually produced) and ahead of its time. But the OGP is actually back at the moment, and there's a bunch of other stuff happening in open computer hardware-land. The Facebook-organised open data centre stuff is also interesting. Proprietary stuff is sooooooo twentieth... :-)

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Post Re: PERMANENT, The Planetary Society and others   Posted on: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:20 pm
box wrote:
Are there any equivalent regulations in other countries?
I am wondering if it is still possible to cleverly engineer a project that would go around this barrier. Though I guess it could be just as easy to just get the clearance from the various government bodies of different countries. It is not like it's forbidden to send or sell such technologies, it is forbidden to do it without reporting it and getting a permit.
I am thinking of braking up the project into parts that can be exported freely and that are regulated. Then selectively open sourcing parts that can be freely shared, and parts that fall under ITAR could be developed by "cells" on both sides of the barrier in paralel without sharing of forbidden information.
As long as you make sure that the designs are modular and easy to integrate with one another, it shouldn't be a problem to run a partially open source space program across borders.
Then again if once the organisations gains legitimacy acquiring the permits to share designs covered by ITAR might be possible.
There is the whole issue of so called "enemies of the free world" acquiring advanced technologies, but I think it is quite clear that those so called "enemies of the free world" already have access to all the advanced technologies through simple black market routes, or their own research facilities.
Though maybe the reason for ITAR is actually economical, and not deffense related. The US doesn't want technologies it or people using it's services developed to freely be available to other nations without the US being able to get some monetary compensation for it.
In this case this is the exact issue of piracy in the music industry. The internet facilitates free movement of information, in case of the music industry it is intellectual property of the authors. One response is to forbid such activity /work against the system/, the other is to go with the trend and make use of rapid spread of freely shared materials /work with the system./
Anyway, any interesting projects or websites people see please post here.
I found something quite relevant: http://opensourceecology.org/
Probably most of you have already heard of this way before I did. But I thought it belongs here because of sheer "cooldom" :).
Overall that project is a lot like how I imagine "freespaceships" or its equivalent to work.
I am so far behind in the open source scene it's not funny. :) Though I guess people not born yet who will eventually be major players of this emerging field are even further behind so I shouldn't worry about my lack of awareness of what's already out there.


I like your ideas on this. I also was considering some type of "open source" spacecraft, but was stymied by the ITAR problem.
I think the idea that it could work is not so fanciful as you might think. Liftport was able to successfully raise over $67,000 on KickStarter, well-over their $8,000 goal, for their proposal to make a lunar space elevator:

Space Elevator Science - Climb to the Sky - A Tethered Tower
by Michael Laine
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mic ... f=category

I think our proposal is more technically feasible because it is already known how to make orbital rockets, and even how to do it as a privately funded enterprise. Then we might expect to get even greater public interest, and achieve greater funding, through the crowd sourcing route than Liftport has been able to do.
This would be enough to do a few national TV spots on cable TV that could really send the interest in the project through the roof.


Bob Clark

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Post Re: PERMANENT, The Planetary Society and others   Posted on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:04 pm
The more I look at it the more I think it has to be the future way of doing things.

With the internet around it has become extremely hard to be secretive. Those pesky hackers and data leaks make it hard. :)

So why bother?

Also with the internet, any of us have basically got access to a much larger external "knowledge" source. This can be beneficial to all of us.

So why not facilitate and even actively try to build connections between formerly separated entities?

Now the issue is the political background of a pre-internet era which hasn't yet "evolved" to change with the new conditions, in some cases even tries to fight these changes, or direct them to still support older and outdated philosophies/ideals about how human society should be structured and how it should work.

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