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Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects?

Posted by: SuperShuki - Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:26 am
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Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects? 

Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss topics that relate to G-d?
Poll ended at Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:26 am
No 82%  82%  [ 9 ]
Yes 18%  18%  [ 2 ]
No opinion 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 11

Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects? 
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Post Re: Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects?   Posted on: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:20 am
JamesHughes wrote:
The more religion is removed from everyday issues the better, for the vast majority of people (IMO). If you wish to involve your religion day to day, you are more than welcome, you are perfectly entitled to be religious, but pushing a religious agenda on a Spaceflight forum (or indeed most other forums), I think is unnecessary.

I'm an atheist btw, so I don't like seeing religion brought in to subjects like this, or indeed anywhere where it has no perceived benefit.

The reason why I think religious discussions should be allowed is because it is a core part of how people see and relate to the world. It affects decision making, and it is something quite important for a large portion of our population.

The benefit of such discussion is better understanding of other people which is essential if you want to cooperate with them.

At any rate the discussion isn't compulsory, it's not like you are forced to take part or even read any of it. That's the best part of online forums it's easy to ignore topics or people.

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Post Re: Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects?   Posted on: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:32 am
I don't view it as a "religious" discussion, but as a practical one. But I appreciate your post, box.

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Post Re: Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects?   Posted on: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:14 pm
SuperShuki wrote:
Thomson and Laurens, I see what you are saying. The problem is, for me, this topic isn't tangential.

I can see that it wouldn't be, since you are a very religious person. Any topic X for you will turn into "the Judaist view on X". I think everyone looks at things from their own perspective in that way. For example, I tend to think in systems and models and maths. If we were to take a walk in nature together, you would see the brilliance and omnipotence of God, while I would see trophic levels and energy flows and nutrient cycles. And probably there are people who would see some valuable wood to be cut down and sold, or a good place to develop some real estate.

Now, the whole point of a discussion is to share different ideas and perspectives so as to learn from each other; if every participant in the discussion already shares the same view, then there's no discussion and nobody learns anything. On the other hand, if some participants are unwilling to accept anything that anyone else says that clashes with their existing views, then there's no point in the discussion either, for the same reason. At the very least, everyone should be able to accept that there are other people with fundamentally different views on some things, and that those views have some value in the context of the people having them. Everyone can then agree to disagree on these things and give those topics a rest, while still discussing other issues. It's not perfect, but it does seem to be the least bad way of dealing with the enormous diversity in our global village.

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Post Re: Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects?   Posted on: Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:29 pm
Lourens, I think what you are talking about is respect - in other words, a discussion based on the presentation of ideas, but with the fundamental assumption that just because you think someone else is wrong about something, doesn't make the a bad person, or worse than you. This is why I am bringing it up now - I was manic for a long time, and during mania, I think I am smarter than everyone else, and don't treat people with respect. I think that is the main reason that Sigurd had to ban my talking about it. Now, thank G-d, I'm much more stable, and on new pills, and I think that if the only reason for banning the topic was that it turned into a "You are bad if you don't believe in G-d" kind of debate, instead of the topic being irrelevant to space (which I obviously don't think is the case), then there is no reason to ban it.
By the way, I see G-d not just in the tree by itself, but also in those energy cycles and trophic levels. I have always approached with awe the wonderful complexity and beauty that science reveals. I don't think that one is inconsistent in any way with the other.

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Post Re: Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects?   Posted on: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:00 pm
JamesHughes wrote:
The more religion is removed from everyday issues the better, for the vast majority of people (IMO). If you wish to involve your religion day to day, you are more than welcome, you are perfectly entitled to be religious, but pushing a religious agenda on a Spaceflight forum (or indeed most other forums), I think is unnecessary.

I'm an atheist btw, so I don't like seeing religion brought in to subjects like this, or indeed anywhere where it has no perceived benefit.


I think that this is the source of the objection, and it is the reason why I am so bugged. How many people on this board believe in G-d? I imagine that the vast majority not only don't believe in G-d, but believe that "religion" should stay in the closet, and not bother other people. My guess is, that if the vast majority of people on this forum believed in G-d, the response to this issue would be far different.

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Post Re: Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects?   Posted on: Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:53 am
SuperShuki wrote:
JamesHughes wrote:
The more religion is removed from everyday issues the better, for the vast majority of people (IMO). If you wish to involve your religion day to day, you are more than welcome, you are perfectly entitled to be religious, but pushing a religious agenda on a Spaceflight forum (or indeed most other forums), I think is unnecessary.

I'm an atheist btw, so I don't like seeing religion brought in to subjects like this, or indeed anywhere where it has no perceived benefit.


I think that this is the source of the objection, and it is the reason why I am so bugged. How many people on this board believe in G-d? I imagine that the vast majority not only don't believe in G-d, but believe that "religion" should stay in the closet, and not bother other people. My guess is, that if the vast majority of people on this forum believed in G-d, the response to this issue would be far different.


If it was theist dominated group and an atheist wanted to talk about their atheism and how they see things in light of atheism it would be exactly the same response.

I have seen theist dominated groups and atheist dominated groups, the behavior was exactly the same, the roles were just simply reversed depending on who was in majority or minority.

I have never seen a group yet where religion wasn't an issue and where the minority was given just as much room to express themselves as the majority.

Though it could be it's just their bad experience with you that is in the play.

I find it ironic though that theists have an issue with atheists expressing atheism, and atheists have an issue with theists expressing their theism and people who don't give a crap are rare as hell. :)

Random ramblings are allowed here. I am allowed to rant on about all sorts of topics. I don't see how expressing religion is any different than expressing opinions about economical issues.

Especially if you think about it. If the majority of tax payers/voters/consumers around the world are religious in one form or another, and IF the source of resources for space related activities are these religious tax payers/voters/consumers then religion is in fact a highly relevant topic.

For instance Iran is a theocracy if I am correct and they conduct or try to conduct activities in space. Religion is a very important part of the equation there. And if people want to understand or form relationships with projects that are run by people with deeply religious backgrounds, it is impossible to ignore the differences in beliefs.

Religion influences culture, law, philosophy. It influences decision making, it is highly relevant for any human activity even if some people think it shouldn't be.

I believe that in a free thinking society people should be allowed to express their thoughts and that includes their thoughts about metaphysics and possible "metaphysical" entities with various forms of cognitive abilities.

If it is not allowed, then it is no longer a free thinking society.

Not to mention that if we listen to people's thoughts based on whether we agree with them or not, then we are not following what "science" itself stands for. So really irregardles of religious background if we ignore other people or don't let other people to express themselves because we don't agree with their opinion, then we might as well be back a couple of hundred years when the church dictated who has the correct opinion and can talk and who has wrong opinions and should be silenced.

I think this sort of censorship is contrary to the "spirit" of the modern "free thought" movement, hence my vote for supershuki to be allowed to express his opinions irregardless of what beliefs he incorporates into his reasoning.

I personally believe that if life is as common as usually space enthusiasts tend to believe, then "alien" life is probably all around us we just haven't noticed.

Reasoning: intelligence would probably have arisen in other spots before us. Interstellar travel is only an issue for limited lifespan organisms, and for organisms that haven't solved the issue of self repair problems of the high radiation environment of the interstellar medium.

This issue can be solved with the ability to program living systems. Nanotechnology, biotechnology, nanobiotechnology...whatever you call it.

Once you master that field, interstellar and intergalactic migration is no issue at all it only requires a long amount of time. But time becomes irrelevant when you can repair your systems as long as you have an energy source. Also the required times for galactic navigation is only a couple of ten or 100 million years.

This alien "system" or "organism" could have arrived here millions if not hundreds of millions of years ago and since then could have influenced the development of life.

Not only that, this organism could have influenced the development of our culture through taking human form, or influencing the thoughts and actions of humans.

Why wouldn't we notice this alien life? Because it can program matter and living systems. It could be inserting and taking out snipets of code all over the biosphere creating and destroying wetware computers that perform it's operations. It could be a compact single organism in one location hidden somewhere, it could be a dispersed swarm type organism spread over large areas. It could be a combination of both.

It is only with the current advancement of biotechnology and nanotechnology that we can even start looking for these computers or signs of such an entity running on the wetware of our biosphere.

This is a 100% physical and scientific hypothesis of a possible "deity" or "deities". It would even explain "posessions", it could explain ghosts and other paranormal activities. Heck if it is computationally possible to copy neural pathways, it might be possible for this entity to "save" "souls" into its database at any point an individuals life including at or just before the point of death. This would mean beliefs about "afterlife" could be possible even if the general belief of the existence of metaphysical deities is not correct.

So when I think about expanding human activities into space I have that "belief" running in the background of my wetware. If the hypothesis is correct and we do have an alien "software" highjacking the wetware of our biological systems, then this thing is a major player in our activities and our successes so far. Ignoring it is quite illogical. If the hypothesis is incorrect and we are indeed alone, then it is something our "descendants" could theoretically become. Vectors of intelligence spreading across the galaxy to other biospheres where natural conditions weren't enough to get intelligence to emerge, or the intelligent systems that emerged needed more help to give rise to cultures.

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Post Re: Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects?   Posted on: Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:25 pm
Penn Jillete (the magician, of Penn and Teller fame) is a devout atheist, and has a wonderful perspective on this issue. He says openly that he is sensitive to the type of "manipulations" that result from protecting someone's feelings and not telling them that they are wrong. To tell someone else that while they are a wonderful person, but that they are wrong, is respect, according to him, and I agree. I encourage people to check him out on youtube - search for Penn Jillete. The fact is, I would love to talk to atheists about how they look at the world. I would love to discuss G-d with Richard Dawkins. If this were a forum for atheists, I would certainly respect the fact that non - atheists should respect their forum - in the same way that I wouldn't go into anyone else's private forum. But, at least to my understanding, this is a space forum, not a religious or nonreligious forum. For precisely that reason, I don't think proponents of atheism, or G-d, should be banned for their views. In fact, I think the way people treat Dan Fredrikson is wrong. He obviously has some mental issues, but that is no reason to ban him, or not to respect him. The first time I was suspended from this forum, was for answering in a very direct manner his christian belief that the Jewish people were replaced, and are no longer chosen (using a quote from the Torah (Bible)!). I highly doubt that Dan was in any way insulted, but for some reason, all the atheists, who presumably don't give a hoot, were!

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Post Re: Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects?   Posted on: Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:01 pm
Of course everyone should be free to express themselves, at least to a reasonable extent (the proverbial shouting-"Fire"-in-a-crowded-theatre argument). But that doesn't mean that here is necessarily the place to do it. Yes, we do have an off-topic section. I'm just afraid that with this being such an inflammable issue, we'll end up discussing religion instead of space flight, and that would defeat the purpose of the forum.

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Post Re: Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects?   Posted on: Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:43 pm
Lourens wrote:
Of course everyone should be free to express themselves, at least to a reasonable extent (the proverbial shouting-"Fire"-in-a-crowded-theatre argument). But that doesn't mean that here is necessarily the place to do it. Yes, we do have an off-topic section. I'm just afraid that with this being such an inflammable issue, we'll end up discussing religion instead of space flight, and that would defeat the purpose of the forum.


First of all, why is inflammable called inflammable? Couldn't it just be called flammable?

The thing is, the topic keeps popping up, not as "religion", but as private vs. public funding of space. This is something that is not just a side topic of Judaism, but in fact, directly related to it's purpose, to bring freedom, and peace, to the world. Actually, if I remember correctly, the spaceflight cafe branch of the forum was set up in response to my making jokes on the Armadillo forum (of the Oh, No! John Carmack is an alien! type). :P
The issue of endless discussions is exactly the reason Sigurd has forbidden me to discuss the topic. My problem with this is the very inflammability of the issue. In other words, the problem I have with the atheists on the forum isn't their atheism, but their inability to accept that someone believes in an objective moral truth, and that therefore, the whole topic must be banned because it creates "endless discussions" that aren't related to space. If the people on this forum would take my statements as they are meant, as how I see private vs. government spaceflight, and not make a knee jerk reaction of, "how dare you tell me that you know better than other people!" and are automatically offended, then I don't think there is any reason for endless discussions. In other words, I think that the endless discussions are a result of other people, not me - so why should I have to pay for it?

Of course, it may be that this thread is an endless discussion, and an unseemly diversion from the vital role this forum plays in the discussion of spaceflight. It may also be that I just like the attention. :mrgreen:

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Post Re: Should SuperShuki be allowed to discuss Dietifical subjects?   Posted on: Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:49 pm
Oh, yeah, another point -
For me, the endless discussion isn't about Judaism, but about space, and that makes all the difference.

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