Community > Forum > Official N-Prize Forum > Will the prize be won?

Will the prize be won?

Posted by: Ben - Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:49 am
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 168 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 12  Next
Will the prize be won? 

Will N-Prizes be won by 19 September 2011 with the rules functionally equivalent to what they are now, including the current cost requirements?
Neither will be won. 40%  40%  [ 12 ]
The reusable prize will be won, but not the single spend. 13%  13%  [ 4 ]
The single spend will be won, but not the reusable. 13%  13%  [ 4 ]
Both prizes will be won. 33%  33%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 30

Will the prize be won? 
Author Message
Space Walker
Space Walker
User avatar
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 2:40 am
Posts: 157
Location: Austin, Texas
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:18 pm
Two-thirds of the people that responded to this poll think that at least one of the prizes will be won. However, there are less than 7 months till the deadline, and none of the teams appear to be even close to winning this. I'm curious if the 13 people that voted for at least one of the prizes to be won still feel that way.

If you think at least one of the prizes will be won, who do you think will win it, and why?


Back to top
Profile WWW
Moon Mission Member
Moon Mission Member
User avatar
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:52 am
Posts: 1368
Location: Exeter, Devon, England
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:51 am
I dont think there will be a winner now, always a chance though :)

_________________
> http://www.fullmoonclothing.com
> http://www.facebook.com/robsastrophotography
> robgoldsmith@hotmail.co.uk


Back to top
Profile WWW
Space Station Commander
Space Station Commander
avatar
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:29 pm
Posts: 712
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:10 pm
I'm not giving up! If this 100kft launch goes well and we get the $9000 Carmack Prize we just might make it. Still time to file with the FAA for about 3 months. If we get close Dr. Dear may extend the time.

Monroe

_________________
Today's the day! We go into Space!


Back to top
Profile
Space Walker
Space Walker
User avatar
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 2:40 am
Posts: 157
Location: Austin, Texas
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:51 pm
Yes, it almost goes without saying that any team that thinks it can win the N-Prize must be able to achieve the goals of the Carmack prize very soon. If you can't send a rocket up 100k feet then it is not possible to put a 10 gram object into orbit, which is probably 2 orders of magnitude harder.

I would expect that any team that thinks it will win the N-Prize would win the Carmack prize within the next two months. If they don't win the Carmack prize by May 1st it is unlikely they can achieve the next step of a suborbital space flight, and then ultimately achieving the N-Prize goals by the deadline.


Back to top
Profile WWW
Space Walker
Space Walker
avatar
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:14 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Las Vegas NV
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:02 am
I think the Carmack Prize is to require use of GPS to report altitude. Difficult and expensive. Special recievers must be used and the history of maintaining lock is poor. GPS may be more difficult than the rest of the rocket.

Also, Paul Breed is contributing part of the prize money. Last I heard it was $5000 Carmack, $2000 Breed. Paul's blog Unreasonable Rocket, may clear that up.

As for N Prize, it will be too bad if none gets to try, and no extension has been hinted at, so it must be assumed there will not be one.

Microlaunchers has not gotten started with hardware because still not enough funds and the move to Las Vegas is taking more time, effort than I thought.

I will still be looking for south Nevada area interested participants for N Prize, or the NASA Challenge (1 kg orbit twice in a week, for $2 million prize). The larger prize may help find participants.

My plan will still be to plan a production of ~100 launchers, use leftovers as Cubesat launch service.

An escape capable version with just enough payload for the laser data link would be tested, also.

I am still designing both an N Prize and Cubesat launcher version, and in my 1000 sq foot apartment, 2/3 of space is for office, electronic workbench etc. The guidance, laser link, some other small components can be developed before a shop space is leased.


Back to top
Profile WWW
Space Station Commander
Space Station Commander
User avatar
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:47 am
Posts: 521
Location: Science Park, Cambridge, UK
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:35 am
There have been a couple of other donation to the Carmack prize, and I think it's up to $9k now.


Back to top
Profile
Space Station Member
Space Station Member
avatar
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 266
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:17 pm
ckpooley wrote:
I think the Carmack Prize is to require use of GPS to report altitude. Difficult and expensive. Special recievers must be used and the history of maintaining lock is poor. GPS may be more difficult than the rest of the rocket.

You're crazy if you think you can get to orbit on a MEMS IMU alone. They've been repeatedly shown to dislike the vibrational environment of a rocket. A GPS is a cheap and easy way to correct a cheap IMU, which is why everyone does that. A high quality IMU that wouldn't need GPS is quite a few multiples of the mass of the N Prize payload.

The GPS is by definitely not the most complicated part of a suborbital rocket, let alone an orbital rocket.

Holding lock in a solid is iffy, but liquids have no problem with it as they typically don't launch at high G.


Back to top
Profile
Space Walker
Space Walker
User avatar
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 2:40 am
Posts: 157
Location: Austin, Texas
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:22 pm
@James, the last I heard it was at $10,000. I'm still trying to join the ARocket list, but I haven't gotten a response from them. Does anybody have a good contact address for the ARocket list administrator?

@ckpooley, I don't know how to respond to your post. Some of it doesn't make much sense. GPS receivers are used all the time in high altitude balloons and rockets. You do need to use ones that work at high altitudes, and they will lose track during periods of high motion. However, they are not that difficult or expensive.

It is too bad that it appears that no one will win the N-Prize, but it's not because "none gets to try". It's probably more that the requirements are too restrictive, and the prize amount is too low for the effort.

I don't understand your "plan". You present some ambitious goals, but I don't see anything to back it up. Unfortunately, that seems to be the case with all of the N-Prize participants.


Back to top
Profile WWW
Space Walker
Space Walker
avatar
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:14 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Las Vegas NV
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:24 pm
Ben:

no IMU. ones accurate enough and vibration proof are too expensive.
Also too heavy. The guidance method is mentioned in slide 6 of the N Prize presentation on my site.

The angular position is to be controlled with a horizon sensor, and daylight launch. That is accurate enough. The accelerometers will be calibrated with a small centrifuge to 1 part in 10k. good enough for LEO.

For escape, a course adjustment would be done in the 1st day out or so.

No GPS needed. Only use for GPS is to locate, confirm launch point. In Black Rock for 1st stage tests using amateur regs, near east coast or at sea for space launch.


Back to top
Profile WWW
Space Station Commander
Space Station Commander
User avatar
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:22 pm
Posts: 843
Location: New York, NY
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:47 pm
does the carmack prize specifically state that you have to use GPS to verify? would a measure of horizon curvature taken from a photograph be sufficient? alternatively a radar reading or whatever else you can use to get an altitude measurement? i don't know how relevant the difference is, but i know monroe's rocket does all of its acceleration in the first 4 seconds and i can't see how a small GPS could possibly hold a lock through that.

i'm a little bit out of the loop, but i'm definitely going to texas to hang out with Prometheus if they go through with this!

_________________
Cornell 2010- Applied and Engineering Physics

Software Developer

Also, check out my fractals


Back to top
Profile
Space Station Commander
Space Station Commander
avatar
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:29 pm
Posts: 712
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:44 pm
Better get you a ticket I just filed for the waiver. We are going to do the Carmack prize that's for sure. Shooting for May 10th this year. I don't have time to chat much about it I'm busy doing it.

Monroe

_________________
Today's the day! We go into Space!


Back to top
Profile
Space Walker
Space Walker
User avatar
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 2:40 am
Posts: 157
Location: Austin, Texas
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:05 am
Monroe,

Have you run a simulation on that Q motor? If I recall correctly, it has an impulse slightly higher than a full P, so I ran a simulation with an impulse of 50,000 N*s and an ISP of 140. I used a diameter of 150mm, and I get an altitude of 36,000 feet with the optimal mass fraction. A 7-mile flight would certainly be nice, but it falls short of the 100,000 feet required for the prize.

Dave


Back to top
Profile WWW
Space Walker
Space Walker
User avatar
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 2:40 am
Posts: 157
Location: Austin, Texas
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:51 pm
Monroe,

I saw on your FaceBook page that you've added a second stage to the rocket. If you want, post the details about the first and second stages, and I'll run it through the simulator to determine the optimal time for second-stage ignition.

Dave


Back to top
Profile WWW
Space Station Commander
Space Station Commander
avatar
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:29 pm
Posts: 712
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:34 pm
Dave
What we need most right now and right away is a dispersion analysis to get the approval from the FAA. There are things about the launch I cannot discuss in public until we have the approval from the FAA. The time table on this project is immediate. We can discuss them in person if you like at the new shop.
Things have changed a lot lately.

Monroe

_________________
Today's the day! We go into Space!


Back to top
Profile
Space Station Commander
Space Station Commander
avatar
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:29 pm
Posts: 712
Post Re: Will the prize be won?   Posted on: Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:28 pm
The "Q" is 96,000 Ns to an "N" N2000W-P Aerotec.

Monroe

_________________
Today's the day! We go into Space!


Back to top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 168 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 12  Next
Moderator: Paul H. Dear
 

Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


cron
© 2014 The International Space Fellowship, developed by Gabitasoft Interactive. All Rights Reserved.  Privacy Policy | Terms of Use