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Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time

Posted by: Dan Frederiksen - Wed May 05, 2010 2:57 pm
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Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time 
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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Thu May 20, 2010 4:45 pm
MFL wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to imply that i think like Dan, in that the people should have a car shoved down their throats because it is 'good' for them. I was just commenting on how I hear a lot of people complain about "oh, GM doesn't build anything that the people want' or 'Oh, the big three never build cars good for the environment' and then turn around and buy and Escalade or a Hummer (or worse a Prius, yes, they do more environmental damage to the environment than the average hummer, but that's a different topic :smile: ). I dunno, the fickle opinion of the public always leaves me with my palm impacting my forehead, but hey, what's the point of freedom if you can't express your right to choose, no? It's one of those things... I may not like a lot of the decisions that people make, but I'll defend their right to make them.


I don't blame GM for building the kind of cars that people want (as its been pointed out the USA is a large country and if i lived there and did long distance driving i could see the advantage of a large comfortable vehicle tho my ideal would be a plug in hybrid Hummer for the best of both worlds like the Military is looking to get hold of.) tho of course if they did that they would have made a profit and not needed to be bailed out :twisted: I turned against them after they had managed to spend all that money breaking the California clean air acts, they as soon as was feasible recalled all their nice functioning reliable and cheap to run EV Impacts against the will of the a lot of those who were using them(and wanted to continue using them being also to willing to pay for "$1.9 million was offered for the remaining 78 cars in Burbank before they were crushed" a better form of recycling being destroyed i think most reasonable people would agree ) and crushed them(hmm something really fishy here refusing $1.9 million to leave them with their users then spending lots of money to have them crushed and and transported to be hidden in a desert junkyard i wonder why GM ended up with money problems :twisted: ) . And the dust to dust thing about the Prius being worst for the environment than a Hummer was another piece of badly managed corporate propaganda that has well and truly been debunked being based on dodgy slanted numbers.

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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Thu May 20, 2010 5:38 pm
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
Make a robot feel pain. That is the red pill but none of you will choose it.


I always thought that the Japanese had the right idea to be polite to Robots.

Being slightly paranoid it seems to make sense if they ever become self aware and want to become emancipated they might be polite about it rather than go the sky-net route if treated with less respect. Please up your reasoned paranoia Dan its slightly worrying to be on the flatter bit of the bell curve than you paranoia wise. :twisted: Joking apart and getting back on thread this is not the kind of forum for the sheep who don't think and insults can be counter productive in trying to get ideas across as i stated further up i am with you on being frustrated in the lack of progress in some technologies but I respect AA for attempting to improve access to space their way trying to make traditional rocketry more accessible there are also others here who are trying different approaches i quite like the JP Airship to space concept me and my N-Prize team are trying to develop a new type of Rockoon concept. If you toned it down a bit you might find more help progressing your ideas(I think the EV market is still wide open) i have found quite a few useful links hanging out here and as Lourens posts show as he shows you his calculations always a good sign i think there are people knowledgeable in certain areas and willing to share that knowledge. As the guy in "Some like it hot"said "Nobody's perfect" mind you having given that quote Lourens may watch it and learn how to dance. :twisted:

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Last edited by SANEAlex on Fri May 21, 2010 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Thu May 20, 2010 5:43 pm
fatron wrote:
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John has the means, the opportunity, the partial inclination and the skill.


Dan, John worked to earn his money. It is his money, and he can spend it however he likes.


Capitalism rocks!

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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Thu May 20, 2010 5:46 pm
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
as for money, I might well commercialize my renderer for the money but I do so reluctantly because I hate wasting my mind on capitalism and that devotion is what has allowed me to realize things few others see and even a couple of things that many have tried for but noone succeeded at.


Capitalism rocks some more!

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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Thu May 20, 2010 8:48 pm
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Ghandhi did little more than suggest things could be better. some of his most effective actions was to do exactly nothing, not even eat.


This is true, but in order to justify your lack of action, you are leaving out one very important thing; Ghandi was charismatic and was a natural leader -- you are neither (just the facts, no offense intended). I can guarantee that Ghandi, Jesus, or any other great spiritual leader didn't try to influence people by calling them idiots. If you want to make change by influencing people, I think you would do well to take a lesson from the spiritual leaders that you look up to. If you aren't willing to take that lesson, you should probably try to approach life more like Bill Gates or John Carmack rather than Ghandi or Jesus.

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I might well commercialize my renderer for the money but I do so reluctantly because I hate wasting my mind on capitalism and that devotion is what has allowed me to realize things few others see and even a couple of things that many have tried for but noone succeeded at.
[/quote]

What is wrong with capitalism when the ultimate goal is your EV? If you're using the money to build your car better humanity, create jobs, cure disease, feed the hungry, etc., you're making the world a better place. Isn't that your ultimate goal? Are you worried that once you have some money, you'll discover you like money and lose sight of your goals?

The real issue is that you're afraid to try because deep down you feel you're going to fail and you're terrified of failing (You can admit it, we're all friends here). If you fail, you'll have to admit to yourself that you're human and, like any human, you aren't always right and sometimes make mistakes. And, you know what? If you try and fail, no one would look down on you because at least you tried. Unfortunately, I think that for you, you're so obsessed with being the smart one and the right one, that it is much easier and safer to stay in your comfort zone and blame us idiots for your own shortcomings.


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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Thu May 20, 2010 9:10 pm
fatron wrote:
Quote:
Ghandhi did little more than suggest things could be better. some of his most effective actions was to do exactly nothing, not even eat.


This is true, but in order to justify your lack of action, you are leaving out one very important thing; Ghandi was charismatic and was a natural leader -- you are neither (just the facts, no offense intended). I can guarantee that Ghandi, Jesus, or any other great spiritual leader didn't try to influence people by calling them idiots. If you want to make change by influencing people, I think you would do well to take a lesson from the spiritual leaders that you look up to. If you aren't willing to take that lesson, you should probably try to approach life more like Bill Gates or John Carmack rather than Ghandi or Jesus.


Yeah, and Moses was known for his humility.

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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Thu May 20, 2010 10:33 pm
fatron, in all these wonderful theories of yours, very little of it involves someone other than me being wrong

sanealex, machines will never become selfaware nor will they have will that comes out of nowhere. that is a common misconception. you misunderstood the point, no doubt from lack of trying.
think about a screaming robot and how to make it feel pain. the impossibility is the proof you need to know what you are.
this many people on the planet for so long yet noone realized the simple and obvious truth that a machine, electrochemical or otherwise can never experience pain and because we have sensation we are not physical beings.
spare me your mindless objections, your trolling lols. think o mindless ones.
while I'm at it, to really bring out the long haired troll in you, by implication of us being spiritual as proven, the theory of evolution is void as it is an entirely mechanistic notion that has no power to produce the extramechanistic. not that you will spend even 5 seconds thinking about it.


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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Fri May 21, 2010 12:06 am
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
sanealex, machines will never become selfaware nor will they have will that comes out of nowhere. that is a common misconception. you misunderstood the point, no doubt from lack of trying.


I tend to doubt those who say something is impossible unless it contravenes well known and proven fundamental physical laws and even then there is always a small element of doubt. I am fairly certain that eventually we will be able to develop self aware machines even if we cant figure out an easy smart way a brute force approach would be to build a hi res MRI machine that could scan down to atomic level scan a human then simulate all the atoms in that human in a powerful computer something that would be quite hard to do but does not break any rules that i know of. If i were scanned the first thing the simulation would say was "Quack" but then i have a slightly twisted sense of humor. :twisted:


Dan Frederiksen wrote:
think about a screaming robot and how to make it feel pain. the impossibility is the proof you need to know what you are.
this many people on the planet for so long yet noone realized the simple and obvious truth that a machine, electrochemical or otherwise can never experience pain and because we have sensation we are not physical beings.
spare me your mindless objections, your trolling lols. think o mindless ones.
while I'm at it, to really bring out the long haired troll in you, by implication of us being spiritual as proven, the theory of evolution is void as it is an entirely mechanistic notion that has no power to produce the extramechanistic. not that you will spend even 5 seconds thinking about it.


Yep i admit long haired but i do spend a bit of time thinking on my good days and the thing about spirituality is that it cant be proven it is something that requires faith which is subjective and not all humans have it and in my experience those without it tend to be those who do spend more time thinking tho not exclusively so. The theory of evolution has held up quite well against both reasoned and unreasoning arguments during mine my fathers and my grandfathers etc lifetimes and during my life time i have watched with amusement on how creationist arguments have evolved you need to hone your skills a bit to get in my personal top ten tho :twisted: Long live the spaghetti monster :!: :!: :!: :!:

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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Fri May 21, 2010 12:50 am
Sanealex, your confidence that selfawareness will eventually be done in a machine is based entirely on ignorance and no doubt largely from faith in James Cameron's terminator vision and similar pop culture. While I have several areas of significant expertise, my AI kung-fu is the strongest and matched by no publically known person, including Yann LeCun for those of you who may have even faint acquaintance with the machine learning field. I don't have an opinion, I don't believe strongly, I know for a simple fact that qualia such as pain nor any related concept such as consciousness or selfawareness is possible in a machine. not because of difficulty or complexity as you imagine but fundamentally impossible just like no complexity of a computer game world can make it bridge the gap to the physical world. no chair of any face count or texture quality will ever become a physical chair. it obviously just doesn't have the expressive power.

I know this (as can you) from the simple fact that if a simple humanoid robot screams when its hand is burned, a thermal sensor in the hand, wires to the head and a simple processor reacting to the signal, felt no pain, didn't need to nor could ever. it doesn't matter how complex and nuanced a reaction you implement nor how intelligently it can perceive events around it nor how eloquently it can describe it with words. pain nor any qualia ever enters the equation.

and by logical equivalence, it doesn't matter if said 'being' is implemented with copper and semiconductors or electrochemically as biological life would appear to be. were we merely electrochemical beings of arbitrary complexity we would simply not experience any sensation whatsoever, merely a mechanism going about its business with nobody home.
and because we have sensation it constitutes simple flawless irrefutable proof that we are extramechanistic aka spiritual beings. by ignorant prejudice you may not like the term spiritual but if shoe fits..

there is no chance I could be wrong about this. I don't strongly believe it, I'm not very convinced. I know.

but you are lost beings adrift in a raging river with no foothold and you cannot even think unfettered for the 10 seconds it takes to realize the obvious. so unexpected is the reality in which we live.

bool pain=true; does not a sensation make.


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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Fri May 21, 2010 1:46 am
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
and by logical equivalence, it doesn't matter if said 'being' is implemented with copper and semiconductors or electrochemically as biological life would appear to be. were we merely electrochemical beings of arbitrary complexity we would simply not experience any sensation whatsoever, merely a mechanism going about its business with nobody home.
and because we have sensation it constitutes simple flawless irrefutable proof that we are extramechanistic aka spiritual beings. by ignorant prejudice you may not like the term spiritual but if shoe fits..

there is no chance I could be wrong about this. I don't strongly believe it, I'm not very convinced. I know.


Ah but being merely i think a biological machine whose self awareness maybe just an emergent process that i admit has yet to be explained properly the only tools that i have to understand the world about me are observation and logical reasoning as i am missing the faith module. By logic i would say that if our bodies are not enough to create self aware beings and we actually need some additional other for sake of argument say a soul then this soul would have to have some identifiable connection to the non sentient body to operate it(it being in this world and subject to it rules) and the only way you could "Know" with certainty is that you have identified and can explain its properties and how it interacts with ordinary matter i have a an overly open mind i am willing to listen but the explanation has to start from what we know about this world which is what we "sheep" know about before we can bridge across to a spiritual world which should be possible as if it exists one end of the explanation should be connected down here.

Dan Frederiksen wrote:
bool pain=true; does not a sensation make.


It does if its a well designed artificial arm and i think it would if all the other parts were replaced with sufficiently well designed parts you have yet to convince me otherwise by reasoned argument not the circular "because i say its so."

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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Fri May 21, 2010 3:14 am
Sanealex, if well designed? : ) perhaps a tad vague? :)
your reasoning is not entirely inept although the conclusion you reach that I cannot know until I have explained how it bridges to the physical is not correct. you can know from the simple screaming robot example. all it takes is a few moments of sober attention. it is not difficult to understand but hard to accept.

as for your thinking on the need for a mechanism to connect the spiritual and the physical you are correct. such has to exist. it is my working hypothesis that the spiritual influence will be seen in the physical as events without identifiable cause, accurately analogized by computer characters acting without any identifiable cause within the computer game world.
it does stand to reason of course that an artifical being could be hooked up to the spiritual by whatever governs just as our physical bodies are. subject to the same 'magical' control.
it is however still impossible for the physical to manifest the spiritual qualities such as pain or any sensation. in psychology and philosophy known as qualia.

emergence is often invoked as you did and I understand why but in honesty you might realize you have no logic to support it. only faith, which in this case is ironically misplaced.

I have faith in God and Jesus but as for us being extramechanistic aka spiritual, I know. as we all can know if only we try.

there are a couple of corollaries, one of which is the voiding of theory of evolution as mentioned. another is that these bodies with which we so identify is not actually part of us, no more than a game character is, although the illusion is quite convincing. it further follows (while you may not) that the physical domain is not even real and only the spiritual domain exists. unlike the matrix however, we are not in a computer simulation although the allegory is worthy. this physical reality is a story told to us in great detail and persistence so impressive and convincing that we believe it to be absolutely real. you might aptly say, there is no spoon. nor any keyboard on which you type.

this glacial logic dictates.

ergo, vis a vis, concordantly :)


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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Fri May 21, 2010 8:12 am
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
I know this (as can you) from the simple fact that if a simple humanoid robot screams when its hand is burned, a thermal sensor in the hand, wires to the head and a simple processor reacting to the signal, felt no pain, didn't need to nor could ever. it doesn't matter how complex and nuanced a reaction you implement nor how intelligently it can perceive events around it nor how eloquently it can describe it with words. pain nor any qualia ever enters the equation.


You have pretty much described how a human feels pain. Pain is simply the brains reaction to a stimulus. If you remove the nerves in the hand, you feel no pain, if you break the link from the nerve to the brain, you feel no pain. The brain can be fooled in to thinking the signal isn't a pain signal (various drugs, even hypnosis), and you can ignore the pain.

The pain you feel is the brains programmed reaction to the stimulus. Exactly how you describe your robot feeling pain. Pain is all in the mind, and the way the mind is programmed (in our case by evolution).


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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Fri May 21, 2010 12:35 pm
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fatron, in all these wonderful theories of yours, very little of it involves someone other than me being wrong


Sorry, Dan. I'm just trying to crack through your shell and help you to accept that the world isn't going to work the way you want just because you feel your way is the right way. You're going to have to put forth that effort, and since you haven't gotten anywhere through talk, maybe it is time to change your tactics.

Next time you have your bible open, read Proverbs 12:11 and spend some time thinking about how it might relate to you.

Dan, I also have spent a lot of time thinking about religion, the world, evolution, etc. Where your thoughts led you to religion, my thoughts have actually led me away from religion. To me, too much of it doesn't make sense. I believe that most of the messages religion has to offer are good messages and good life lessons, but I do not for a second believe that things like the great flood actually happened, or that the earth is only 6000 years old.

Growing up, I was always taught that god is an all knowing, all seeing, all loving entity. I was taught that God knows everything - including the future. I was also taught that God gave man free will so he could make his own choices. Man can choose to be a sinner, or he can choose to live a righteous life. I also learned that those who don't accept the Lord will be punished with an eternity in hell. These lessons cause a logic problem for me because they mean that since God knew how I was going to turn out before he ever created my soul, I really didn't have free will. He knew I wouldn't believe in Him, therefore he created my soul knowing that I would go to hell. Why would God create all these souls specifically for the purpose of suffering?

The last religious person I presented this to opted to cry rather than give me an answer. It made me feel bad for asking the question, but didn't help me find any answers.

Dan, you've obviously done a lot of thinking about this sort of thing, how did you come up with an answer for this?


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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Fri May 21, 2010 12:38 pm
way to pop his baloons James :)

Ok, now I can follow the path leading from rockets to electric cars, as that was primarily driven by ol' Ego Dan-O, but... how are we on spiritual matters and sentient robots? i must have missed something.

And to throw in my two cents worth... Dan, being spiritual does not negate evolutionary processes.

So.... how bout that weather today?


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Post Re: Do we live forever that we can afford to waste time   Posted on: Fri May 21, 2010 12:56 pm
fatron, for anything I say to be right I have to know why God created us?
for you to say F=ma you have to know how existence is possible?
in your haste to be thoughtless you succeed.

In human terms I have exceptional knowledge in certain key areas but compared to the scope of truth I am like a drooling baby.

But I can tell you that you don't ask to know but to cement your thoughtlessness as the beast commands you.


Last edited by Dan Frederiksen on Fri May 21, 2010 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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