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Democracy or Space?

Posted by: campbelp2002 - Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:14 am
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Democracy or Space? 

Would you give up democratic freedom to achieve routine, ecconomical space flight?
Poll ended at Sat May 12, 2007 2:14 am
Yes 38%  38%  [ 3 ]
No 63%  63%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 8

Democracy or Space? 
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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:01 pm
A business is a dictatorship. And corporations will be taking us to space.

Happily you don't have to work for that company and that company can't tax you. (Unless that company is GE, GM or GS...)

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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:44 pm
How long do I have to give up democracy, and is the dictaotrship a constitutional one (i.e. an oligarchy where the dictator is removed if they break the constitution)? 8)

I agree that we need to inspire the populace more than making them slave away doing something they don't want to. Remember, “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea.”

I'm willing to fly a Yoda pod :D


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Post Re:   Posted on: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:47 pm
Ekkehard Augustin wrote:
Space and Democracy or the political system must be kept apart urgently.

1. The people living in a country allways have different and even contrary values. Which values might be right and which values might be wrong allways is a personal subjective decision - objectivity is impossible regarding values. Values don't follow from Physics or Natural Sciences or any other sience and are a matter of Ethics. This means that some people - based on the values - can end up in the conclusion that space isn't worth no efforts, no funds etc. And since this can't be decided objectively each measure to dictate them another conclusion is arbitrary - arbitraryness is against humanity against freedom, against a life worth to be lived and so on.

Dipl.-Volkswirt (bdvb) Augustin (Political Economist)


You don't follow logically, Ekkehard (assuming I understand you correctly). If values are arbitrary, then freedom (as a value) is also arbitrary. You can't just say that something is "against humanity"- what is your basis for that? The truth is that freedom is an absolute value, because freedom is granted by God. And this topic is very topical (ummmm. . .). Should we stop countries that are not free, such as China, North Korea and Iran, from developing rocket technologies? Moral relativists would say no - according to them, freedom, like all values, is relative, and it doesn't matter if a society is free or not. According to those who believe in the absolute value of freedom, such countries should be fought at every turn, because they violate the basic values of human existance. Absolute values - granted by God.

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Post Re: The US Declaration of Independence   Posted on: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:54 pm
From the beggining of the US Declaration of Independance:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

see http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:34 am
Please, do not bring religion into this discussion.


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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:41 am
IrquiM wrote:
Please, do not bring religion into this discussion.


I don't know what you mean by "religion". Ethics and values cannot be discussed without referring to God. If God is not legitimate, then neither is democracy.

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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:08 pm
If the only tool you have is a hammer...

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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:17 pm
SuperShuki wrote:
IrquiM wrote:
Please, do not bring religion into this discussion.


I don't know what you mean by "religion". Ethics and values cannot be discussed without referring to God. If God is not legitimate, then neither is democracy.


You just did it again.


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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:23 pm
IrquiM wrote:
SuperShuki wrote:
IrquiM wrote:
Please, do not bring religion into this discussion.


I don't know what you mean by "religion". Ethics and values cannot be discussed without referring to God. If God is not legitimate, then neither is democracy.


You just did it again.

What do you have against referring to God? Why is God taboo (especially when the topic is relevant)?

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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:57 pm
The problem is that it's rather pointless having a discussion if the only argument you're going to give is "God says so, therefore it is so". That is not a logical argument (in fact, it's an argument by authority, which is a fallacy), and therefore it cannot be refuted, so that kills the discussion. It's interesting, by the way, that you claim an unbreakable bond between democracy and God, as democracy was invented by the ancient Greeks, and they weren't Christians. So which of the Greek gods gave them democracy?

I reckon you are now going to argue again that, since I don't read Hebrew, I am fundamentally incapable of being right on anything related to religion?

Values are not arbitrary, but if you think that they're the exclusive domain of religion then you've missed a couple of centuries of humanism. I base my opinion on whether something is right or wrong on its results to individual happiness and the common good. I think democracy is good because people living in a democracy tend to have more freedom, and people with more freedom tend to be happier. You see? We can discuss ethics and values just fine without God.

So, do we trade democracy for space? I think a democracy that doesn't do spaceflight will generally have happier citizens than a dictatorship that does. So, I wouldn't trade democracy for space.

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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:09 pm
Lourens wrote:
The problem is that it's rather pointless having a discussion if the only argument you're going to give is "God says so, therefore it is so". That is not a logical argument (in fact, it's an argument by authority, which is a fallacy), and therefore it cannot be refuted, so that kills the discussion. It's interesting, by the way, that you claim an unbreakable bond between democracy and God, as democracy was invented by the ancient Greeks, and they weren't Christians. So which of the Greek gods gave them democracy?

I reckon you are now going to argue again that, since I don't read Hebrew, I am fundamentally incapable of being right on anything related to religion?

Values are not arbitrary, but if you think that they're the exclusive domain of religion then you've missed a couple of centuries of humanism. I base my opinion on whether something is right or wrong on its results to individual happiness and the common good. I think democracy is good because people living in a democracy tend to have more freedom, and people with more freedom tend to be happier. You see? We can discuss ethics and values just fine without God.

So, do we trade democracy for space? I think a democracy that doesn't do spaceflight will generally have happier citizens than a dictatorship that does. So, I wouldn't trade democracy for space.


Belief in God has to be based on logic. It has to make sense. My belief in God is based on Jewish history, not a leap of faith.
The Greeks got the idea that "goverments derive their power from the consent of the governed" (in the words of the US declaration of independance) from the Jews. A Jewish king, according to Judaism, gets his power only if the people want him to govern.

Why does your definition of "good" apply to anyone else? If your definition only applies to you, then it's relative.

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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:18 am
God didn't want Israel to have a king, or a democracy.

The question is, if we all stay on Earth to be obliterated by an asteroid, is it worth it to uphold 'Democracy'.

Very little gets done by Democracies, especially in Engineering.

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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:38 am
SuperShuki wrote:
Belief in God has to be based on logic. It has to make sense.


Belief in a supreme power is as far from logic as you can get.


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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:41 pm
idiom wrote:
God didn't want Israel to have a king, or a democracy.

The question is, if we all stay on Earth to be obliterated by an asteroid, is it worth it to uphold 'Democracy'.

Very little gets done by Democracies, especially in Engineering.


1) God didn't want Israel to have a king?! Have you heard of King Saul, King David, King Solomon, etc. All appointed by Prophets. Read the Bible.

2) The airplane, the photograph, the microchip - what modern invention wasn't invented in a democracy?!

3) The question is, what are you willing to give up for the sake of freedom? Are you willing to stop other countries from developing rocket and space technology, because they aren't free? Remember, the cost of freedom is a willingness to fight and die for your freedom. No less.

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Post Re: Democracy or Space?   Posted on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:07 pm
IrquiM wrote:
SuperShuki wrote:
Belief in God has to be based on logic. It has to make sense.


Belief in a supreme power is as far from logic as you can get.

My belief in God is based on first hand experience. No, I'm not a prophet - but the prophets of the bible prophecied that the Jews would be exiled, before it happened. They prophecied that the Jews would survive, as a nation, throughout the exile, before it happened. And they prophecied that the Jews would return to Israel, that the land would give fruit, that the Jews would be sovereign again, all before it happened. All these events are unique in history, in fact go against everything that you would expect from observing other nations. For a great essay (by Mark Twain) on the seeming illogic of Jewish survival, goto http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/mtwain/bl-mtwain-concerningjews.htm, and scroll down to the part "to conclude".

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