Community > Forum > Google Lunar X PRIZE > SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun

SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun

Posted by: Rob Goldsmith - Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:48 am
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 80 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun 
Author Message
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:04 pm
Posts: 36
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:06 pm
Yes, the engines of all stages are pure 70% hydrogen peroxide mono-propellant motors.
According to this site: http://www.friends-partners.org/partner ... s/h2o2.htm
the ISP can not be greater than 117 seconds which is quite low.


Back to top
Profile
Space Station Member
Space Station Member
avatar
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 266
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:26 am
117 is actually pretty good. I think the Pauls were getting something in the 90s. Launching at altitude will help, of course. But still, monoprop peroxide is not very capable.


Back to top
Profile
Space Walker
Space Walker
avatar
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:14 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Las Vegas NV
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:33 am
Isp in vacuum should be well over 117. Could be 160 or so. But even that is hopelessly too low for an orbiter.

For a first stage from the ground it needs to be well over 200 and for upper stages at least 250. And really should be 10% higher than those figures.

Getting, using large amounts of H2O2 is also very difficult. I have seen others try, and much of the cost, difficulties are with the consistent decomposition with catalysts.

If you take the hydrogen out, what's left will work better.

Charles Pooley Microalunchers


Back to top
Profile WWW
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
User avatar
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:26 pm
Posts: 33
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:04 am
As I recall, the two Pauls had troubles warming their fuel to a temp where it produced the expected thrust. By the time the ballon reaches the desired altitude, I expect the fuel onboard to be very cold, which could be a problem.


Back to top
Profile WWW
Space Walker
Space Walker
avatar
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:14 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Las Vegas NV
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:53 pm
I helped Unreasonable Rocket in their LLC effort as team member, and, yes one of the problems was that one morning the peroxide was cold. But with a vehicle as large as that proposed, it would take a long time to cool.

More important is that rockets with such a low specific impulse cannot reach orbit because the delta V is to be over 6 to 7 times exhaust velocity and the mass ratio to do that is astronomical. For velocity 7 times exhaust velocity the mass ratio would be 1096 for a single stage, and a higher payload to mass would be required for multi stage.


Back to top
Profile WWW
Rocket Constructor
Rocket Constructor
avatar
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:26 am
Posts: 8
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:31 pm
ARCA does not intent to launch anything into orbit using monopropellant. They figured out this some time ago and proposed for HAAS some kind of hybrid engine, based on the same peroxide as oxidant and parfin or bitumen as propellant . However, that strange model shown on their website has no room for the propellant, and what's attached to nozzles looks more like decomposition chambers, too small to accomodate for hundreds of pounds of parrafin or whatever. But that model is definitely something for show ( the sole thing they're excelled so far) and may undergo some changes in the future


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:04 pm
Posts: 36
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:23 pm
ckpooley wrote:
I helped Unreasonable Rocket in their LLC effort as team member, and, yes one of the problems was that one morning the peroxide was cold. But with a vehicle as large as that proposed, it would take a long time to cool.


Do you know the concentration of the H2O2 you used and the temperature of that morning?

70% H2O2 freezes at about -40 C and the temperatures between 10 000 m and 14 000 m are below -50 C at this time of the year. The balloon needs at least 1 hour to climb from 10 km to 14 km. There is enough time for a layer of ice to form along the interior walls of Helen rocket.

Also, I am not sure about the reactivity of H2O2 at low temperatures. Nobody expects the hydrogen peroxide in the tanks be above zero at the time the first motor starts.

If still liquid, can hydrogen peroxide be decomposed equally efficient by a catalytic bed no matter of its temperature or simply the efficiency of the reaction and in consequence the ISP of the engine drop dramatically as the H2O2 approaches the solidification point.

You can say that once the decomposition bed gets hot it will heat the cold H2O2 that is fed into it and there will be no problem but the process of rising the temperature will consume energy that otherwise would have been converted into thrust.


Back to top
Profile
Space Station Member
Space Station Member
User avatar
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:51 am
Posts: 448
Location: Vienna, Austria, Europe, Earth
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:49 pm
As far as I know, the Paul Breeds used 85%-90% H2O2

source: http://unreasonablerocket.blogspot.com/ ... chive.html

Im pretty sure it was mentioned in the livestream as well.

_________________
pride comes before a fall


Back to top
Profile
Space Walker
Space Walker
avatar
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:14 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Las Vegas NV
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:18 pm
85% (I was on his LLC team). 90% decomposed at too high a temperature and it damaged the silver plated screens. There is concern that peroxide from some sources has too much stabilizers, which tends to poison the catalyst.

It is now being produced in US for rocket work, as there are several projects ongoing one of which will be using over a ton/month.

To me, engine design using peroxide looks more difficult that using LOX.


Back to top
Profile WWW
Rocket Constructor
Rocket Constructor
avatar
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:23 am
Posts: 6
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:21 am
A friend of mine, a pro photog, will arrive Thursday 12th in Constanta for the scheduled Helen launch.
I asked him if he can bring along a video camera or a super-zoom optically stabilised photo camera that can shoot video, for the high altitude launch :)


Back to top
Profile
Moon Mission Member
Moon Mission Member
User avatar
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:52 am
Posts: 1379
Location: Exeter, Devon, England
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:18 am
The launch of the Helen rocket has started -- Romania's first attempt to reach space

The webcast site is not live at the moment but presumably will be as the launch process progresses. The balloon, in particular, will take awhile to reach the proper altitude for the rocket firing. The launch procedure will last about 3 hours.

-Hobbyspace

-Live feed - http://www.realitatea.net/arca

_________________
> http://www.fullmoonclothing.com
> http://www.facebook.com/robsastrophotography
> robgoldsmith@hotmail.co.uk


Back to top
Profile WWW
Space Walker
Space Walker
User avatar
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 2:40 am
Posts: 159
Location: Austin, Texas
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:58 pm
November 14, 2009 - CONSTANTA
ARCA has postponed the launch of Helen rocket.
The cause was determined by very powerful air currents who twisted the balloon, stopping the inflating process. ARCA team with the help of military divers restored the balloon in correct position and the inflating operation was resumed.
This action has had a length over time, in which it was lost the solar radiation intensity required for heating the air inside.
We will keep you updated with more news.


Back to top
Profile WWW
Rocket Constructor
Rocket Constructor
avatar
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:26 am
Posts: 8
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:43 pm
The wind in that region has low intensity, as is forecasted for tomorrow, almost zero, that’s something very rare for that sea. The motivation “high winds at altitude” in their press release has too little to do with a balloon that didn’t rise much over the sea level! What do they expect for such a big ball ? That people don’t have a meteorologist or can’t get information about winds in a very limited area?? Did they ever do a rehearsal, using the real balloon starting over the sea waters? I still wonder why don’t they launch from the shore, the air current may send the balloon many kilometers over the sea during ascent. Perhaps they want a bigger cushion for untested, unstabilized rockets that may reach populated regions.
Don’t think they really wanted to launch!


Back to top
Profile
Space Station Commander
Space Station Commander
avatar
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:29 pm
Posts: 712
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:24 am
It's obvious to me why, the balloon is about as full as it can be and there's not enough lift. It's too heavy!

Monroe

_________________
Today's the day! We go into Space!


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Participant
Spaceflight Participant
avatar
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 8:40 pm
Posts: 55
Location: Belgium
Post Re: SFS News: ARCA - Haas Orbital Rocket Launcher for Google Lun   Posted on: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:16 pm
ckpooley wrote:
85% (I was on his LLC team). 90% decomposed at too high a temperature and it damaged the silver plated screens. There is concern that peroxide from some sources has too much stabilizers, which tends to poison the catalyst.

It is now being produced in US for rocket work, as there are several projects ongoing one of which will be using over a ton/month.

To me, engine design using peroxide looks more difficult that using LOX.

Could you disclose which projects are planning on using peroxide?


Back to top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 80 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 

Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


cron
© 2014 The International Space Fellowship, developed by Gabitasoft Interactive. All Rights Reserved.  Privacy Policy | Terms of Use