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How many years John

Posted by: Dan Frederiksen - Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:42 pm
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How many years John 
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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:14 pm
sigh.
I'm pretty busy trying to hold my own economy while saving the planet from global warming via lean electric cars. However intelligent I am, I can't do everything for everyone in this not so impressive world.
and even if I were the most lazy bastard ever, I would still be right about AA.


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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:34 pm
but see SGTalon, you didn't respond until I suggested this forum has only cowards and trolls.
And in any matter I ask/suggest nicely the first many times and when the reason is not heard then I am left with only two choices, accept that reason will not be heard or push harder. The failure is not mine..

and I haven't 'insulted the hell out of AA and John', I've merely told the truth about what they do and could be doing. if the truth is insulting then that is still not my failure.

The situation is that AA is not aggresively pursuing space. They are playing at rocketry, however incorrect that may sound to many of you. Space is a high threshold endeavor. there is no middle ground. you either go for it or you're just playing and will never make a difference. As I pointed out the first decade of AA is not far away and if they've committed to turist jumping (which by the way is far more ambitious than what I propose because of the risk of carrying people) then they have committed well beyond the first decade. Even if you were to accept the premise that such a vehicle/technology suite would be a good stepping stone for small payload orbit, then surely AA should have orbit somewhere firmly planted in the schedule. and since they can't even say they'll go for orbit within 5 years that means they haven't given it serious thought. that means they haven't even thought about it. seriously. if AA was not in need of criticism, then what I asked would be easily answered by "we'll use the same engine as the people carrier and it should all be ready for first go in 2 years. it has already been planned"
but it's not even on the radar judging from their prior responses, the absence of mention on their website and it very simply means they are on a course that doesn't include anything that will actually matter.
you can call me a troll until the end of time and I will still be right and my comments prudent.

you are not protecting AA by being angry with me. you are hurting AA by not joining me in insisting. John is not a God that is always right. Just look at doom 3 :)
I'm not saying that AA owes us anything. I'm not saying they are obligated to go into orbit. I'm not saying I would have the courage to go for it myself if I had the money. I'm just saying that if they don't go for something that actually matters in the grand scheme of things, all their effort and money will have been for naught.

If they are not continually conscious and pushing for the goal of orbit they will keep spending those years and millions of dollars and we will all have wasted our lives in this regards. It's a huge potential that's not being fulfilled.
If they just want to play at rocketry then at least they should have the clarity of mind to declare it.

low payload orbit is not that hard and infinitely cooler if done right and John certainly has the skill to pull it off. he just needs the vision and will.


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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:41 pm
So are you registered for the automotive x prize? That shouldn't be too difficult for you to win. Do you have a blog with regular updates we can follow? How many years have you been working on electric cars? How close are you to achieving your goals?


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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:45 pm
fatron, actually my design could win the automotive xprize and with ease no doubt, but in their infinite wisdom they decided it should cost 10k$ to enter as if the money to build it and travel to USA with it and live there during the competition wasn't burden enough. so no, even though my design is infinitely ahead of the others I wont win the 3.3million dollars..

this is my design www.zev.dk


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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:07 pm
Did you try to find sponsors? If your car is that good, it should have been easy to find someone to fund entry and construction - especially with a guaranteed win. I know it is too late to enter the contest now, but if your car is that good, you should be able to get some venture capital to help fund your prototype, or is your finished car just not practical for road use? How close is your prototype to being done?


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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:24 pm
fatron, only preparation so far. it's about 20k$ away from being finished. I do architectural visualization part time from home so I have a lot of time to develop my mind but it limits my financial situation. so the problem is money.
and while I haven't applied for VC I have applied for aid from several government calls for funding for green projects and without exception they were idiots. I have participated in several eco idea competitions and again all the judges were idiots, often times absolutely no technical background among any of the judges. one time the winner was a gas powered lawn tractor pulling 11 hand pusher lawn mowers. they claimed that because they were pulled instead of normally pushed it was 80% more efficient than other lawnmowers and the idiot judges believed it. my idea was prescreened out of consideration.
when asked what exactly their major malfunction was they said 'while they had doubts about the efficiency claim the award was given because their product was ready'. it was an eco idea competition.

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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:38 pm
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
They are playing at rocketry,

Until very recently, when they decided to enter the RRL and to pursue a business in space tourism, that was exactly what they were doing. And whatever your mind made up, they never claimed anything else. If Armadillo Aerospace decides that they will forever stay a small rocket propulsion R&D company without any goals of reaching orbit themselves than that would be fine as well. Already their experiments with dozens of different engine designs have contributed more to the space industry than a lot of other (big) companies will ever do.

Dan Frederiksen wrote:
Space is a high threshold endeavor. there is no middle ground.

Says who? On what basis?
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
you either go for it or you're just playing and will never make a difference.

Wrong, as pointed out in my first paragraph.

Dan Frederiksen wrote:
but it's not even on the radar judging from their prior responses, the absence of mention on their website and it very simply means they are on a course that doesn't include anything that will actually matter.

Only because your vision is very limited in scope does not mean that the things they do do not matter to other people.


Dan Frederiksen wrote:
I'm not saying that AA owes us anything. I'm not saying they are obligated to go into orbit. I'm not saying I would have the courage to go for it myself if I had the money. I'm just saying that if they don't go for something that actually matters in the grand scheme of things, all their effort and money will have been for naught.

If they are not continually conscious and pushing for the goal of orbit they will keep spending those years and millions of dollars and we will all have wasted our lives in this regards. It's a huge potential that's not being fulfilled.

Contradiction?

Dan Frederiksen wrote:
low payload orbit is not that hard and infinitely cooler if done right ...

If you think putting a 10kg "box" up in orbit is cooler than going to space yourself - even if it is only for a very short amount of time - then there surely is something wrong with your mind ;)

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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:53 pm
I've reviewed your web site, and I'm not seeing any new ideas there. Your design seems very much like any other highly efficient auto/motorcycle/bike hybrids. While your goals are admirable, I don't see anything that hasn't been done before. Am I missing something, or is what makes your car so different that you've pulled together everything that has already been tried and put it together in one package? Have you taken things like climate control into account when you calculated your theoretical mileage?
I see problems with marketability of your design. While tandem seating is much more efficient, most people would find it unpleasant because it would be hard to have a conversation while driving. Your design also appears like it would be very difficult for people who have a physical disability to get in and out of your car.
What safety features do you have in place? The renderings of your vehicle are pretty basic, there is no indication of what you plan to use for side impact reinforcement, etc. This is very important for a lightweight, low set vehicle that is sharing the road with heavy steel vehicles. You might get interest from motorcycle riders, but not much interest from people that are hauling around their families. You may even run into issues where your vehicle has to be licensed as a motorcycle (like the Aptera in the US).

If I recall, part of the requirements for the automotive x prize were safety, marketability, and desirability. While your car may be capable of the 100mpg (equivalent) requirement of the x prize, I have a feeling it would fail on safety and desirability.

You should consider redesigning your car to make it more desirable to buyers. Once that is done, you'll probably see more interest from outside investors. Once you get some on the road, you could concentrate on the ultra high efficiency models.


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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:02 pm
fatron, if the desirability criteria of the xprize competition does not mean desirable to the intelligent then that's just another thing wrong with the xprize.
your other comments are similarly wrong. if you will think about it some more and correct one of your mistakes I'll tell you more. otherwise I'd be a fool to jump through hoops for someone desperately trying to avoid admitting you were wrong all along.


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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:17 pm
That's ok, I'll pass on playing your games.
If you plan to succeed, with your car, you may just have to admit to yourself that you have to build what the client wants, not what you want. If you are going to be your only client, that's fine, but if you plan to try to get investors you may just have to compromise your ideals so they can get a return on their investment. If you're not willing to do that, you're just wasting your time and effort on a project that will never go anywhere. How many years Dan? How about you set a date on which you will have a marketable vehicle after which you will acknowledge publicly that you have failed miserably.


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Post Actual serious questions   Posted on: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:30 pm
Hey Dan,

I like the car. It is a lot like a beefed up version of the electrathon cars I used to build in High school. We did not worry about suspension then, since we were racing on smooth tracks. They were three wheelers though. Much simpler to design.

Nice foam cutter. We made ours out of a lead acid battery and a bicycle spoke. It worked but made a gooey mess at the same time.

I have had resin freeze up on me more than once. We got fairly consistent eventually and built a stirrer with a very large bent nail inserted into a power drill.

Are the motors going to care if they get shaken laterally?

How do you tension the chain? Or even get it on for that matter? I can't tell from the picture if your motor mounts allow it to pivot for purposes of chain tensioning.

Is there any steel embedded into the monocoque body for purposes of bolting in the suspension / seats / battery pack?

How do you plan on keeping the body from twisting between the axles?

I like the idea of painting the foam to keep it from melting. We used plaster. It was a painful step.

Did I read that right that you wrote the ray-tracer that renders your pictures?

All the best that looks like a fun project. I need to get my own place so I can start up something similar.

~Daniel


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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:59 pm
someone intelligent, how unusual :)

I figure the motors will be able to handle the oscillation yes. it's true that it will be moved but mechanical stress is not uncommon in cars :)
there is no spring tensioner on the chains, just slits where the motors can move until there is tension. when the chain is worn it will skip like a bicycle.

I imagine body twist strength can be done with a plate of distance material on the floor sandwiched between fiber glass. bolts go into that, like seats.

as for protecting foam, a better approach is likely to use PU paint instead of hte PVA relaese film. either PU paint alone or normal paint first to fill the pits and then thin PU. but haven't yet found a good source for PU 'paint' but haven't looked alot for it.

I'm working on a renderer yes and the last image is done with it. not the others. Very recent that I implemented the file loader for it.

but this car thing is a tangent here. this is about AA and their choice for the future.
but they've perhaps decided to never answer anyway


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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:55 am
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
and I haven't 'insulted the hell out of AA and John', I've merely told the truth about what they do and could be doing. if the truth is insulting then that is still not my failure.


Thought I would enter in to a bit of troll feeding.

Troll, as a noun, comes from Old Norse:(n.)
"ugly dwarf or giant," circa 1600; From the Online Etymology Dictionary:
"...meaning "giant, fiend, demon." It seems to have been a general supernatural word, Old Norse trolldomr "witchcraft." The old sagas tell of the troll-bull, a supernatural being in the form of a bull, as well as boar-trolls. There were troll-maidens, troll-wives, and troll-women; the trollman, a magician or wizard, and the troll-drum, used in Lappish magic rites. The first record of it is from a court document from the Shetlands, regarding a certain Catherine, who, among other things, was accused of "airt and pairt of witchcraft and sorcerie, in hanting and seeing the Trollis ryse out of the kyrk yeard of Hildiswick." Originally conceived as a race of giants, they have suffered the same fate as the Celtic Danann and are now regarded in Denmark and Sweden as dwarfs and imps supposed to live in caves or under the ground."


Seems a cracking description to me, given Dan's location (and rather scary avatar)

Anyway, back on subject....

Dan, the failure is sadly with you I am afraid. The failure is that you are unable to make an argument without resorting to insults, which by their very nature, mean the people with whom you are trying to talk (in the case AA), are extremely unlikely to respond. Can I suggest that were you to rephrase your questions you may get the response your require. Whether that response would match with your thoughts I find rather unlikely, but at least there would be a response. Unfortunately, resorting to insults is a sure sign of a weak argument, so I would hope you would be able to refrain from them, and also the rather specious and so far unproven statement 'well I am more intelligent than you' which really does mean less than nothing.


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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:38 am
how would you know if you were wrong James


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Post Re: How many years John   Posted on: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:02 pm
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
fatron, only preparation so far. it's about 20k$ away from being finished. I do architectural visualization part time from home so I have a lot of time to develop my mind but it limits my financial situation. so the problem is money.
and while I haven't applied for VC I have applied for aid from several government calls for funding for green projects and without exception they were idiots. I have participated in several eco idea competitions and again all the judges were idiots, often times absolutely no technical background among any of the judges. one time the winner was a gas powered lawn tractor pulling 11 hand pusher lawn mowers. they claimed that because they were pulled instead of normally pushed it was 80% more efficient than other lawnmowers and the idiot judges believed it. my idea was prescreened out of consideration.
when asked what exactly their major malfunction was they said 'while they had doubts about the efficiency claim the award was given because their product was ready'. it was an eco idea competition.

'should' is not even a city in russia


Dan, this is a great idea, why are you not in mass production yet? I think you have a horrible lack of vision. This vehicle would make a great boat, just replace the tires with paddles. Its so easy, too bad you IQ is so small you wouldn't think of such a brilliant plan.

How many years till you go into mass production? Considering people have been building electric cars for a 100 years, for a person of you intellect it should be easy.

So I call for you to publicly announce on this website the date you will sell your thousandth car. Or is your car just a pretty idea, with no bent metal?

Ok, I have had my fun. Electric cars have ZERO to do with Armadillo Aersospace. I realize this thread is about your EGO, and by bringing up your Power Point Project you prove it.

I patently wait for this thread to be deleted.


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