Community > Forum > Technology & Science > Europe's Phoenix: RLV Set for Friday Test Flight

Europe's Phoenix: RLV Set for Friday Test Flight

Posted by: Voyager4D - Thu May 06, 2004 9:04 pm
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 39 posts ] 
Europe's Phoenix: RLV Set for Friday Test Flight 
Author Message
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 1:13 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Santiago, Chile
Post    Posted on: Fri May 28, 2004 2:37 pm
Luke, Sigurd I sure hope I din't start a fight. It's just that I'm interested in Europe's technological policies and the relationship between gobernment and industry.


Back to top
Profile
Space Station Commander
Space Station Commander
User avatar
Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 8:59 am
Posts: 578
Location: Zurich
Post    Posted on: Fri May 28, 2004 2:44 pm
Don't sweat it george, they aint fighting ... they just be exchanging opinions. To which they are entitled and nobody is being forced to read them, much less .. ahem ... agree.

What was the topic of this thread again?


Back to top
Profile
Space Walker
Space Walker
User avatar
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:59 pm
Posts: 100
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark, Skandinavia, Europe, Blue planet
Post    Posted on: Fri May 28, 2004 3:01 pm
Phoenix... :D

From the ashes to the flame... or should we say flaming... :twisted:


Back to top
Profile WWW
Moon Mission Member
Moon Mission Member
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:46 pm
Posts: 1215
Location: Kapellen, Antwerp, Belgium, Europe, Planet Earth, the Milky Way Galaxy
Post    Posted on: Fri May 28, 2004 3:22 pm
luke.r wrote:
Sigurd, I do not in any way wish to offend you but your thories on political development are incorrect. Conservatives (blue) are not demons stalking the earth. They are extremely important pragmatic people who have the clarity of thought to make things happen. They also like to retain what some dismiss as old-fashioned values and traditions. We can't hope to develop into an advanced space-fairing race if we throw away our knowledge and culture because it seems outdated. People remote from the motherland will need these things to build the new colonies and expand the influence of our people. It is also the case that as good as the standard of living in Belgium and parts of Europe are, they are doing nothing for your long-term development. Belgium is essentially a failed state with a high level of conflict between the Walloons and Flemish. Without the EU, it would certainly go the way of Czechoslovakia and divide in two. The European countries economies have extremely poor growth performance and high unemployment. They are essentially living beyond their means as proved by the fact that despite the larger population of the EU compared to the Americans, as far as productivity and GDP are concerned Europe are nowhere. The Europeans should embrace free market principles like the UK and America in order to improve economic growth and international relations. The disgraceful CAP may placate the french but it starves and kills producers in the developing world. Where is the undemocratic EU's sense of responsibility to its fellow man? Or is it "I'm alright Jack, f*** the rest of you."?

Oke, you don't agree with me.. pefectly, you shouldn't just copy my thaughts, but at least I hope we can just discuss it on a normal way.

[political development], wel I'm talking here kinda about people psychological development, research done by people "in the united states", where even President Clinton toghetter with Mandela used to get South Africa back on it's legs.
http://www.spiraldynamics.net/

To clarify some things.. I may have been a little offending.. and sorry to the people who may have felt it that way.


Quote:
Conservatives (blue) are not demons stalking the earth. They are extremely important pragmatic people who have the clarity of thought to make things happen.

No, they are NOT demons, And yes they have goals... and that's "very" good. In spiral dynamics they call it the Black & White thinkers.. with this group you can handle things with respect, and you'll know very well what they want or need.

Quote:
They also like to retain what some dismiss as old-fashioned values and traditions. We can't hope to develop into an advanced space-fairing race if we throw away our knowledge and culture because it seems outdated.

Very true, Because some people are in Orange, Green and higher.. they see indeed Blue (Conservatives) as old fashion, BUT yes Orange on the other way arround is progress (more selfish). Green (Back we values), you may actually see it that way:
Orange would destroy if nessecary a lot to develop to the maximum, greens would go back to "rescue" other things that may NOT get destroyed, Yellow is the first development meme that accepts all lower laying memes, on this way, history and people's culture is important.. we should learn from it. Orange without Blue, is dangerous, OR green should get back on upperhand.
This psychological system is called Spiral Dynamics because it's changing from red (I orientated), blue (we orientated), orange (I orientated), green (we orientated), yellow (lower level + new I orientated), turquoise (we orientated).

Quote:
People remote from the motherland will need these things to build the new colonies and expand the influence of our people.

In spiral dynamics, Blue is the first after Red, Red are kinda the "war lords", you get up with beeing the strongest.
Blue makes values, and those are needed to make respect, but green would do the same but diffrent style, and yellow would use blue + orange + green + more to achieve it all.
The old first "we" meme was Purple, people started working toghetter in groups, until red came.. again some more selfish.. (I orientated) and people wanted their own might and power.

Quote:
It is also the case that as good as the standard of living in Belgium and parts of Europe are, they are doing nothing for your long-term development.
Oke you're going very personal here, some parts are blue, some parts are orange, but a lot are getting more to green.
Belgium is even recornised by the UN as a better state, we have no real poor people, we have "safe roads" compared to others, etc etc..
This comes with a cost, higher taxes, same as in Norway.
But on business, we're strong, for only having 10 million people, the second largest beer company in the world is belgian, chemical industry the largest in the EU is belgian, a few weeks age a belgian company buyed the UK largest chemical company.. the pride of blair.. no longer from the UK.. but owned by a small countries people. we have also a very large ship port.; so we're not weak... but we're neither with a lot of people to support a lot of larger developments.
And we're doing a lot for our long term development, but again diffrent compared to your country.

Quote:
Belgium is essentially a failed state with a high level of conflict between the Walloons and Flemish. Without the EU, it would certainly go the way of Czechoslovakia and divide in two.

You're extreamly using "wrong" data, cia factbook ?.
Belgium is not a failed state and living standards are higher as in your country, and the conflict between Walloons and Flemish are nothing compared to conflicts in other states.
I even have to search very hard to find a very good example of our conflict..
It's kinda only the politics, from who got rights to vote over where etc...
My own grand parents from my dad's side speak french, and I'm dutch.. and more than 75% have family or friends from the other side.. we even love to go to vecation over there... again "Vlaams Blok" 1 party doesn't like it.. but all others "work toghetter".. and Vlaams Blok will never be able to split it.. or cause any real troubles..; they are even getting prosecuted for beeing racists. And all other conflicts are small or just "out of date".
And comparing to Czechoslovakia is totaly wrong, Other EU Countries should be compared to Iraq in that case, I don't see the connection.. but you may find one in that case.

Quote:
The European countries economies have extremely poor growth performance and high unemployment

True, I can only speak from the belgian side.. when there is a very high unemployment, the "government" pays your loan..., of course.. this costs " lot lot" of money.. but now when the economy is recovering.. end this year or next year the troubles will be gone.. atleast "in belgium".. and we're also paying of our dept.. (also costs a lot), so it's an investment for the future.. less dept == less to pay in the end.

Quote:
They are essentially living beyond their means as proved by the fact that despite the larger population of the EU compared to the Americans
You're really forgetting that most of the EU are still countries under heavy development.. Portugal.. etc is also relative still in basic development... hungary etc those are countries coming up from a very dark times.. give them time.. and they will be ok.

And the last part.. I don't think I'm the right person to comment on that part.

And yes... sorry I may have explained myself offending before.. the world is more complex as spiral dynamics.. but I just tried to put psycholgy->politics->space.. so let's close the politics topic on general politics.
And yes.. "I can be wrong".

_________________
Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible. - Lord Kelvin, 1892


Back to top
Profile WWW
Space Station Member
Space Station Member
User avatar
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:16 am
Posts: 322
Post    Posted on: Fri May 28, 2004 5:39 pm
on the subject of Buran Class orbiters:

One of the almost-completed orbiters (I believe Ptichka) is just parked out in open air at Baikonur. The Buran itself was severely damaged when the roof caved in at the facility it was being stored at, although there are rumours that the Buran's airframe was slightly damaged on it's one re-entry landing, and may never have flown again, even if the Russians had kept the Energya and shuttle programs alive.


Back to top
Profile YIM
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 1:13 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Santiago, Chile
Post    Posted on: Fri May 28, 2004 6:04 pm
bad_astra wrote:
on the subject of Buran Class orbiters:

One of the almost-completed orbiters (I believe Ptichka) is just parked out in open air at Baikonur. The Buran itself was severely damaged when the roof caved in at the facility it was being stored at, although there are rumours that the Buran's airframe was slightly damaged on it's one re-entry landing, and may never have flown again, even if the Russians had kept the Energya and shuttle programs alive.


Spaceships parked out in open air, space ship factories converted to diaper production! Nobody was interested in buying anithing of this? Even after the Challenger loss? What a waste.


Back to top
Profile
Space Walker
Space Walker
avatar
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 4:25 pm
Posts: 122
Post    Posted on: Fri May 28, 2004 10:03 pm
one could say so george but then again the real world has a tendency not to comply with lofty theories or values (small kick in the pants to the political/ideological stuff i don't feel belongs on this forum).

the russians are great at making things work, really good, usually not in the first go but by constantly repairing and fixing them (think Mir). sadly (?) this just isn't efficient enough in a competetive market.

right now just about all space technologies no matter from where or by who, are still very ineffective: we're using brute force to get there. cutting-edge technology wise but still mostly by pure brute force. this is one of the reasons for the high cost and the comparatively low market for any space product (the ansari x-prize is great as it gives a jumpstart to the evolution of new technology, more efficiency, or both).

so unless russian scientists and engineers makes something that is just a tad more effective than the competition it makes perfect sense that their factories (and jobs) are changed into something that makes profit. btw some of them do make new technology and more effective solutions, it's not like the russian space technologies disappeared from the face of the earth, just that highly inefficient stuff like the challenger/buran-type vehicles got scrapped (and highly inefficient programs have this way of employing hordes of people - go figure :wink:).

would it be better if the individual engineers and scientists were still able to use their wealth of knowledge and experience? absolutely! but keep in mind that the stuff about efficiency and economics still apply to whoever hires them so it's not that easy.


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 1:13 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Santiago, Chile
Post    Posted on: Sun May 30, 2004 12:49 am
Regarding brute force and efficiency: shure, space tech is still inefficient, that's why it's expensive and my government is stopping the airforce's satellite program. But I still think that Buran and the Space Shuttle where steps in the right direction (and Hopper should be). Yes, the shuttle is not as easy to operate as an airplane, but it should be beter than any non rehusable rocket. No mater how much maintenance it needs and how much fuel it burns, at least you to get to reuse the shuttle and the auxiliary boosters. You save all that huge heap of metal and electronics that you could only launch one time with a conventional rocket.

The notion of using a maglev launch track for Hopper, similar to the world war 2 rocket track for the Sanger (the antipodal bomber, not the later DASA proyect), could be an improvement as it would save rocket fuel and reach an enormeus launch velocity (supposing maglev is an economical technology, it's still not convincing the train industry).

The Kisler also looks promising. It's rehusable but not as complex and ambitious as a shuttle (or Roton).


Back to top
Profile
Space Walker
Space Walker
User avatar
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:42 am
Posts: 191
Location: Cider country, England.
Post    Posted on: Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:21 am
Hi Sigurd. Thanks for your reply and I would like to assure you I am not trying to pick a fight. If I was I would make some kind of link between the worlds second largest brewery and the need to purchase a UK chemical works. :lol: It is clear that elements of social responsibility are needed to protect the weak from unbridled capitalism, its just that in Britain we deeply resent paying for it. Maybe this contradictory attitude is what often leads Britain to end up with the worst of both worlds but I guess we have to figure this one out on our own. Please ignore any comments on Belgium, its unfair for me to judge their actions when I don't live with their problems. I was however reading up on the Europa programme and reserve the right to blame France and Germany entirely :lol: :lol: !

_________________
It was like that when I found it. Honest.


Back to top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ] 
 

Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: Rick Maschek and 18 guests


© 2014 The International Space Fellowship, developed by Gabitasoft Interactive. All Rights Reserved.  Privacy Policy | Terms of Use