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Europe's Phoenix: RLV Set for Friday Test Flight

Posted by: Voyager4D - Thu May 06, 2004 9:04 pm
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Europe's Phoenix: RLV Set for Friday Test Flight 
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Post    Posted on: Sat May 08, 2004 5:35 pm
Nice pictures but best of all it works, it works!!! :)

On to the next round of testing I suppose.


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Post    Posted on: Sat May 08, 2004 6:41 pm
Just a quick note, apparently the PHOENIX came down within 10 metres of it's landing target and had a centreline accuracy of 2 centimetres, not bad. I also read that there should be about 3 more test flights.


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Post    Posted on: Sat May 08, 2004 6:51 pm
Nova wrote:
Just a quick note, apparently the PHOENIX came down within 10 metres of it's landing target and had a centreline accuracy of 2 centimetres, not bad. I also read that there should be about 3 more test flights.


Link?


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Post    Posted on: Sat May 08, 2004 10:26 pm
Soz, I forgot to put it in, I found it on the NEAT website (North European Aerospace Test range). Here it is:
http://www.neat.se/projects/phoenix.shtml


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Post    Posted on: Sat May 08, 2004 11:35 pm
8) Europian Union countries... I hope more projects similar as this will happen in the future 8)

EU got 2 times as manny people as the US, when more people of the new countries get developed, so I bet more new EU countries will join ESA and create a larger space development force.

Imagen Turkey joining EU.. and later ESA... with their military power... ESA would get a real huge boost.


... Time to get nasa out of the sh-it.. and bring it back positive.. more competition.. how faster other agancies arround the world will work :)


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Post    Posted on: Sun May 09, 2004 4:12 pm
It took a long time for the space news sites to pick up the story of the succesfully droptest..
But at laste....
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/phoenix_flight_040509.html
The next step likely will be to drop the prototype from higher altitudes, with the help of a high-altitude balloon, Bergstroem-Roos said. The finished shuttle must be capable of gliding to land from an altitude of 80 miles, she said.


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Post    Posted on: Mon May 10, 2004 3:30 am
John wrote:
... Time to get nasa out of the sh-it.. and bring it back positive.. more competition.. how faster other agancies arround the world will work :)


Time for an end to "Agency" thinking to space, period. Space is a place, not a program. That's why X-Prize, to me, will be far more historically important then Phoenix, X-38 and a score of other similar tests.


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Post    Posted on: Mon May 10, 2004 6:45 am
http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1446_A_1196314_1_A,00.html
Three further tests are planned in the coming days. using data from the flights, researchers will optimize Phoenix and prepare it for further tests at higher elevations. Drops are planned from as high as 25 kilometers using balloons or supersonic aircraft. In the mid-term, EADS also plans to outfit Phoenix with its own engine. Before it is ready for prime time, the shuttle will have to be able to glide from an altitude of 130 kilometers.

Nice 3 more tests.. And a Phoenix with engines, very cool.... If they build a lillte Maglev track it will be perfect... :D


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Post    Posted on: Thu May 27, 2004 5:57 pm
It's nice to see work actually being done, with results to show. Just like in the XPrize, a proyect without hardware tests really shows no promise.

EADS cleraly has made the difference for European aerospace. Remember Sanger and Hermes? They got just as far as NaySAy's Shuttle replacement: nowere. In fact, Europe didn't even have enough wind tunnels to develop Hermes.

THe 15-20 year time frame is to be expected for a European effort. That has a reason, politicians there are as without vision as NASA. It's EADS that's the motor. This big company just needs this big programs to grow. And the individual countries that have interests in EADS need the company to grow. That's what Spain did: joining Eurofughter, Airbus and EADS made a need to strenghten the aerospace sector. It's Airbus Military that needs the A400 not Europe as an entity (ok the airforces also need it, but politicians don't care). For example Spain needs Airbus Military because it means industrial plants, jobs, aerospace carrers in universities, you name it. It's that industrial complex that demands political action.
It's Weird they don't have a geopolitical strategy that needs the high tech (like the Apollo program for the Cold War) to breed an industrial complex that will give strenght to the economy. The industry leads the policy. I predict that EADS will be the motor for European space transportation. Corporate greed with a vision? I suppose the trick was to have one European relevant actor (interest group) so all those countries found something in common.

(Just in case, the theory of a military industrial complex leading US policy is not accurate. It's the other way around).

The down side is that proyects are slow to fine tune work sharing (Spain actualy builds only One wing of the Eurofighter!) and to collect the money, specially from the second though prone Germans (but in this case they are leading).

Someone mentioned he'd like the XPrize to inspire Europeans to make this a manned ship (probable with the long schedule). I don't think they'll see it that way, they might consider the idea almost excentric. But if Starchaser succeeds, the eurosceptic British should be exited. They are proud and it was pride that took China to space, so I'll keep my fingers crossed for Starchaser. Maybe Canadian succes could have an influence in France/Belgium.

Speaking of future shuttles, does anyone have info on Buran? I think that proyect could yield good data and tech for this tipe of development. I understand Buran's only flight was unmanned (like the European proyect). Am I right?


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Post    Posted on: Thu May 27, 2004 6:04 pm
george wrote:
Speaking of future shuttles, does anyone have info on Buran? I think that proyect could yield good data and tech for this tipe of development. I understand Buran's only flight was unmanned (like the European proyect). Am I right?


The Russian Shuttle Buran ("Snowstorm" in Russian) was authorized in 1976 in response to the United States' Space Shuttle program. Building of the shuttles began in 1980, with the first full-scale Aero-Buran rolling out in 1984.

The first suborbital test flight of a scale model of Buran took place in July 1983. There were five additional flights of the scale model in following years. Aerodynamic tests of the full-scale Buran analogue began in 1984. This aero-Buran was worn out after 24 test flights and would not fly again. The last of these aerodynamic test flights was in April 1988.

The first and only orbital launch of the shuttle Buran was at 3:00 GMT on November 15, 1988. The flight was unmanned, as the life support system had not been checked out and the CRT displays had no software installed. The vehicle was launched on the powerful Energiya booster into an 247 by 256 km orbit at 51.6 degrees inclination. The Buran orbited the Earth twice before firing its thrusters for reentry. The flight ended at 6:25 GMT when the vehicle touched down at Tyuratum. The Buran 1 mission was limited to 2 orbits due to computer memory limitations.

Although the first orbital flight of Buran was unmanned, it demonstrated much promise. The autopilot that landed the shuttle was able to overcome a 34 mph crosswind to land within 5 feet of the runway center line. Also, of the 38,000 heat shield tiles that covered Buran, only 5 were missing.

After the first flight of Buran, funding for the project was cut. Although the project wasn't officially canceled until 1993, much of the work was halted long before that date. There were two other Buran shuttles under construction. The second orbiter, "Ptichka" ("Little Bird" in Russian) was originally scheduled for completion in 1990. The third Buran was due in 1992. Neither was finished. In November 1995, the partially completed shuttles were dismantled at their production site. The manufacturing plant is scheduled to be converted for production of buses, syringes, and diapers.

source: Nasa

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Post    Posted on: Thu May 27, 2004 6:21 pm
Thanks Sigurd for that snowstorm of info on the Buran! That was fast, you sure know your stuff.

Clearly finding a Shuttle replacement (at least an interim one after 2 accidents) is not really that hard...


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Post    Posted on: Thu May 27, 2004 6:34 pm
george wrote:
Speaking of future shuttles, does anyone have info on Buran? I think that proyect could yield good data and tech for this tipe of development. I understand Buran's only flight was unmanned (like the European proyect). Am I right?

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/buran.htm
If you want to know something about about a rocket or spaceship look here:
http://www.astronautix.com/
This site has info about every space project that ever existed.


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Post    Posted on: Thu May 27, 2004 6:36 pm
Soyuz wrote:
george wrote:
Speaking of future shuttles, does anyone have info on Buran? I think that proyect could yield good data and tech for this tipe of development. I understand Buran's only flight was unmanned (like the European proyect). Am I right?

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/buran.htm
If you want to know something about about a rocket or spaceship look here:
http://www.astronautix.com/
This site has info about every space project that ever existed.


Thank you, I'll check those links.


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Post    Posted on: Thu May 27, 2004 6:47 pm
george wrote:
Someone mentioned he'd like the XPrize to inspire Europeans to make this a manned ship (probable with the long schedule). I don't think they'll see it that way, they might consider the idea almost excentric. But if Starchaser succeeds, the eurosceptic British should be exited. They are proud and it was pride that took China to space, so I'll keep my fingers crossed for Starchaser. Maybe Canadian succes could have an influence in France/Belgium.


I'm from belgium [EDIT] And Also Soyuz who just posted before me :)[/EDIT]and I don't think Belgium will do any space work on it's own, they will support all the esa work (or atleast almost all), but belgium isn't a country that can put a lot of money into some project.
Politics are very close to the people, it will be hard to justify any plan to go to space outside esa with some other country or so.
Diffrent parties would have to agree, we don't have a 1 party government...
We have only 10 Million people, and the local companies are more related to chemicals, cars, beer, .. industry, so space isn't something that will boost our local industries a lot.

The current political concerns are "More Green", "Less Traffic", "Lower Road Death counts", ...
Belgium is building at this moment more on the social moral side of people, less crime, less death accidents... better life.. and we have no real poor people anymore as France Germany, US, UK has etc..

On the psychological scale, (spiral dynamics), we're currently with a starting green political system, it will take an other 5 to 20 years before we're in the yellow development stage, before Space developments etc would come back on the topic list.

But again.. UK, US.. still has to come to the social green.. side.. if people start electing those people... it will be hard times for space development.
One day.. they will.. no country can skip a psychological development stage of their people.

Some parties (as example Vlaams Blok) (nationalists, against EU, imigrants etc etc.. kinda racists, but an alarming count of people start voting for them) in belgium, are lower developed on psychological scale, and those parties can drag a country back down.. for some time..if they get elected.

Bush as example, is Blue, while most of the US is equal split into 2 parts Blue/Orange and then we have some higher Greens (and a few yellows).

For space the diffrence is:
Blue -> people have to follow what the government thinks and say (black and white thinking), if government is PRO space == very good, if it's anti space == very bad
Orange -> People get freedom, moral capitalism, less Friends Politics.., good, but space will be +- backed.. and it's that time NASA should support private companies.
Green -> Not back to nature as some people mistake it (but protection of some nature), Kyoto, Health, Safer Roads, Nation wide Protection for Poor people, Old people, Handicapped people...
Yellow -> OpenMinded first "one" developed person level, on this scale.. a person would be able to be a long time alone without going insane.. and know what he wants or "is". (Some people train it, dayla lama as example, but in that case it comes with other costs.., when most people are green or already yellow, it will be more easy for all children to develop to the same level or higher (turquoise)).

So if the step to private companies in Orange isn't made... in green the government will almost not support the space agency, they won't let it fall.. but invest a lot to turn it into safe, nature friendly etc etc... so without a lot orange point of view achievements. but in yellow... the nation will be "finaly" out of the first psychological basic "mess" of human thinking.
But Yellow.. I expect it to be in about 20 years in belgium.

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Last edited by Sigurd on Fri May 28, 2004 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post    Posted on: Fri May 28, 2004 1:04 pm
Sigurd, I do not in any way wish to offend you but your thories on political development are incorrect. Conservatives (blue) are not demons stalking the earth. They are extremely important pragmatic people who have the clarity of thought to make things happen. They also like to retain what some dismiss as old-fashioned values and traditions. We can't hope to develop into an advanced space-fairing race if we throw away our knowledge and culture because it seems outdated. People remote from the motherland will need these things to build the new colonies and expand the influence of our people. It is also the case that as good as the standard of living in Belgium and parts of Europe are, they are doing nothing for your long-term development. Belgium is essentially a failed state with a high level of conflict between the Walloons and Flemish. Without the EU, it would certainly go the way of Czechoslovakia and divide in two. The European countries economies have extremely poor growth performance and high unemployment. They are essentially living beyond their means as proved by the fact that despite the larger population of the EU compared to the Americans, as far as productivity and GDP are concerned Europe are nowhere. The Europeans should embrace free market principles like the UK and America in order to improve economic growth and international relations. The disgraceful CAP may placate the french but it starves and kills producers in the developing world. Where is the undemocratic EU's sense of responsibility to its fellow man? Or is it "I'm alright Jack, f*** the rest of you."?

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