Community > Forum > Technology & Science > Technical firsts achieved to date with SpaceShipOne

Technical firsts achieved to date with SpaceShipOne

Posted by: Guest - Mon May 17, 2004 7:35 pm
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 19 posts ] 
Technical firsts achieved to date with SpaceShipOne 
Author Message
avatar
Post Technical firsts achieved to date with SpaceShipOne   Posted on: Mon May 17, 2004 7:35 pm
First privately constructed supersonic airplane.

First all composite supersonic airplane.

First supersonic airplane to be designed entirely with CFD (no wind tunnel testing).

First all composite airplane to fly over 100,000 and 200,000 feet.


Back to top
Space Walker
Space Walker
avatar
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 4:25 pm
Posts: 122
Post    Posted on: Tue May 18, 2004 7:05 pm
they have gotten a lot of firsts, and they'll probably get some more :D

correct me if i'm wrong but the shuttle-cock feature of ss1 is a first for any flying craft as well isn't it? imo if it's anything that spells out "burt rutan" it's this creative solution


Back to top
Profile
avatar
Post Firsts   Posted on: Tue May 18, 2004 7:32 pm
n54 wrote:
they have gotten a lot of firsts, and they'll probably get some more :D

correct me if i'm wrong but the shuttle-cock feature of ss1 is a first for any flying craft as well isn't it? imo if it's anything that spells out "burt rutan" it's this creative solution


The shuttlecock feature is certainly at least a radical departure from any previous designs for aerospacecraft intended for re-entry.


Back to top
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 1:13 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Santiago, Chile
Post    Posted on: Mon May 24, 2004 7:34 pm
SS1 was designed with no wind tunnels? Does anyone know how this can be achieved? (I'm a non technical person). I don't know exactly what CFD is. Is it Computational Fluid Dinamics?

I understand the importance of the record. I've been able to see 2 wind tunnels (but I was not allowed to play with them). One had been used to design free fall cluster bombs and was HUGE. I can't imagine the energy costs of the thing, but it must have been incredibly expensive.

I understand one of the reasons for the Europeans abandoning their shuttle proyect was the lack of wind tunnels (it would have tied up their mayor tunnels for years) so on the economical sector alone Burt Rutan deserves all the recognition he gets.

What I don't understand is how a computer can accurately simulate a wind tunnel. I thought wind turbulence was in the realm of caos and complexity theory (that is beyond current analitical tools). It seems to me like those programs to predict stockmarket behaviour: totaly unreliable.


Back to top
Profile
Moon Mission Member
Moon Mission Member
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:46 pm
Posts: 1215
Location: Kapellen, Antwerp, Belgium, Europe, Planet Earth, the Milky Way Galaxy
Post    Posted on: Mon May 24, 2004 7:37 pm
george wrote:
SS1 was designed with no wind tunnels? Does anyone know how this can be achieved? (I'm a non technical person). I don't know exactly what CFD is. Is it Computational Fluid Dinamics?

I understand the importance of the record. I've been able to see 2 wind tunnels (but I was not allowed to play with them). One had been used to design free fall cluster bombs and was HUGE. I can't imagine the energy costs of the thing, but it must have been incredibly expensive.

I understand one of the reasons for the Europeans abandoning their shuttle proyect was the lack of wind tunnels (it would have tied up their mayor tunnels for years) so on the economical sector alone Burt Rutan deserves all the recognition he gets.

What I don't understand is how a computer can accurately simulate a wind tunnel. I thought wind turbulence was in the realm of caos and complexity theory (that is beyond current analitical tools). It seems to me like those programs to predict stockmarket behaviour: totaly unreliable.


Well, Wind is something very easy to predict for computer software these days, Simulators are really getting very good.
So yes it's perfectly possible to test it all without real wind tunnels.. but just using computer software.

An example:
http://www.denford.co.uk/vwt.htm
Image
Image
Image


Scaled info: http://www.scaled.com/services/aero_ana ... _an_de.htm
http://www.scaled.com/services/structua ... design.htm

_________________
Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible. - Lord Kelvin, 1892


Last edited by Sigurd on Mon May 24, 2004 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Back to top
Profile WWW
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 1:13 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Santiago, Chile
Post    Posted on: Mon May 24, 2004 7:47 pm
Sigurd wrote:
Well, Wind is something very easy to predict for computer software these days, Simulators are really getting very good.
So yes it's perfectly possible to test it all without real wind tunnels.. but just using computer software.


That's news to me. My mom teaches fluid dinamics and at the University of Santiago they have a small win tunnel and a couple of huge water tunnels. I'll pass the tip along. But I don't think they'll let me take the wind tunnel home. But they'll save a lot on electric bills.

Evidently, Rutan's system works, as his prototipe is in the air.


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 12:13 am
Posts: 35
Post    Posted on: Tue May 25, 2004 12:01 am
I don't think Rutan ever uses wind tunnels in his projects... I can't remember where I heard that, though (I think a t scaled.com) so don't quote me on it... but even though ss1 probably will never be anything but a reseatch craft, he and all of scaled composites deserve alot of credit for creating such a unique design.

_________________
Only in darkness, the light. Only in silence, the word. Only in dying, life. Bright, the hawk's flight, on the empty sky.


Back to top
Profile
Space Station Commander
Space Station Commander
User avatar
Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 8:59 am
Posts: 578
Location: Zurich
Post    Posted on: Wed May 26, 2004 8:13 am
Diadem wrote:
I don't think Rutan ever uses wind tunnels in his projects... I can't remember where I heard that, though (I think a t scaled.com) so don't quote me on it...


Ok Diadem, I wont quote you on it ... I'll just refer you (first) to the SpaceShipOne Ground Test section of this page ...

http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/ ... t_data.htm

On 8 - 21 Oct 2003 they refer to the following ...

... Scaled conducted full-scale "wind tunnel" tests of the SS1 boom-tail using a modified Ford-250 pickup truck to provide the necessary flow field ...

and they supply a photo of the setup ...

http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/ ... el_800.jpg

So, to be absolutely nitpicky about things ... if you restrict your statement to the tier one tests for SS1, then you are right ... they didn't actually use a wind-tunnel ...

Now about his other designs ... check this out ...

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay ... GA15G2.htm

Hey, live and learn right? It's all good. :)


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 12:13 am
Posts: 35
Post    Posted on: Wed May 26, 2004 11:43 am
You quoted me! I told you not to quote me! Argghhh! <I'm melting!.....> :lol:

<my bad.>

_________________
Only in darkness, the light. Only in silence, the word. Only in dying, life. Bright, the hawk's flight, on the empty sky.


Back to top
Profile
Space Walker
Space Walker
avatar
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 4:25 pm
Posts: 122
Post    Posted on: Wed May 26, 2004 3:49 pm
rutan uses "windtunnels", in fact he uses the largest "windtunnel" in the world... it's called the atmosphere! :wink:

what's impressive is the fact that he now manages to go more or less directly to using this unbeatable "windtunnel" directly, instead of spending huge amounts on the smaller "siblings"...

afaik his modus operandi has always been to avoid windtunnel use during construction whenever he can. but until recently a minimum of windtunnel testing has usually been necessary


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 1:13 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Santiago, Chile
Post    Posted on: Wed May 26, 2004 3:51 pm
I like the picture of the Ford "Wind Tunnel". What an ingenious low cost idea! I think Ruttan's biggest contribution to aerospace is not his individual tech achivements, but his design, development and construction process. After all, lots of people can make a record breaking air/space craft (but not in the quantities that Ruttan achieves). The best thing, IMO, is that he makes High Tech a relatively low cost affair. NASA, the DoD and others face problems by just throwing money at them. It's as if they wanted the hardware's cost to do all the rocketing upwards.

Ruttan's a return to the old days of Ed Heinemann and John R. Boyd (the man responsible for the adquisition of the F16, the last US fighter to cost LESS than the aircraft it replaced).

Ruttan is the best thing since the Japaneese said they had to copy things to improve them and lower costs. He's the closest thing to the Internet revolution in aerospace.

I also liked the pics of the Wind Tunnel. What does that thing run on? Electricity, kerosene? I bet the Ford's more fuel efficient!


Back to top
Profile
Space Walker
Space Walker
avatar
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2003 9:58 pm
Posts: 111
Post    Posted on: Thu May 27, 2004 12:51 pm
Rutan indeed is a modern pioneer; the manufacturing process of his planes is a proof to the statement. Instead of the traditional long, slow and expensive process of first creating the plug, molds and finally laminated structures, Scaled mills the foam core into desired shape on which the structural laminates are laid, eliminating several steps on the way.

Even though it could be argued that large scale series would benefit more from the molds, this method reduces development costs significantly. And it's the development that advances the technology.


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 1:13 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Santiago, Chile
Post    Posted on: Thu May 27, 2004 5:23 pm
Vendigo wrote:
Rutan indeed is a modern pioneer; the manufacturing process of his planes is a proof to the statement. Instead of the traditional long, slow and expensive process of first creating the plug, molds and finally laminated structures, Scaled mills the foam core into desired shape on which the structural laminates are laid, eliminating several steps on the way.

Even though it could be argued that large scale series would benefit more from the molds, this method reduces development costs significantly. And it's the development that advances the technology.


This method really sounds promising. I could argue that it has a place for large scale manufacturing. Specially for medium, small manufacturers of composite aircraft from countries with a modest technological base, like Chile or México. Most of these manufacturers are trying to grow out of the military market into the civilian one but lack the industrial weight. Each sale takes a long time and you have to keep open the production lines during years (you can't stock planes to sell later). As this is very hard, you can also make several intermitent production runs opening, closing and reopening lines. This is a big waste. By reducing the hardware, you reduce idle capacity and lower overheads. This should make lower production runs feasible. Chile's Pillán used to get orders of around 40 units (Chile, Spain), lately they are 8 to 5 (Central America).

This could well justify the expense of working in comoposites instead of metal. You need to control the environmental at the assembly line (that's the cost) but since tooling requirements are smaller, you could use the same hangar to produce different things.

I suppose Ruttan came up with this system by making so many proyects with planes not destined for mass production. He came up with a cheap way of producing technical demostrators. This could be good for manufacturers of specialized craft that are necesary but sell in low numbers, like sea planes.

It could also reduce the number of advanced orders needed for your launch customer to make so you can start production.


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 1:13 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Santiago, Chile
Post    Posted on: Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:20 pm
Well, SS1 just got another very significant first: first private spaceship that gets to space.


Back to top
Profile
Spaceflight Trainee
Spaceflight Trainee
avatar
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:14 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Florida
Post Firsts   Posted on: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:48 pm
george wrote:
Well, SS1 just got another very significant first: first private spaceship that gets to space.


First composite spaceplane.
First airplane besides an X-15 to reach space.


Back to top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 
 

Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests


© 2014 The International Space Fellowship, developed by Gabitasoft Interactive. All Rights Reserved.  Privacy Policy | Terms of Use