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Blue Ridge Nebula's Family team is kicked out of X-Prize

Posted by: Sigurd - Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:21 pm
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Blue Ridge Nebula's Family team is kicked out of X-Prize 
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Spaceflight Trainee
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Post    Posted on: Fri May 21, 2004 2:55 am
Check this out... very interesting reply to my e mail, and actually kind of insightful.

Thanks for the e-mail Mr. Jones, and welcome to our industry, we need good
pilots and I hope you will become our newest one eventually, and not kill
yourself in the process. ( I say that to all of my students, because I have
lost a few along the way but that normal in this dangerous filed.) God Bless
your endeavors. To address you questions and comments, yes my concept is
far out but that's because its the state of the art, and anything new is
consider, by small minds, as out the box, even the Wright brother were
consider , and still are in may aviators circular, out the box inventors.
But that how our industry came about and how leader are created. The
prototype " Haynes Saucer" you have been looking at is just that, a proof
of concept flying test platform for my RCU and hybrid ram jets. Remember
their is no other model I can reference because I am the first to build
this type of flying vehicle. Many flying test beds successfully flown in
aviation past history, don't even have complete airframes, I just used
cheaper material on the outside to project the shape and appearances
while also keeping the development cost down. The type of prototyping allows
me the ability to form the initial shaping so I can recreate the sheet
metal and composite final formation with little reworking activities. This
type of prefabrication techniques is commonly employee throughout our
industry. Please don't make the same mistake the Dr. Peter, and his team,
made a few months ago. They actually think we are going to fly the prototype
into space because they lake critical thinking skills and believe that me as
a black person doest not know ant better. They failed consider my 4 decade
involvement with aircraft and space vehicle design and development
experiences. But this is expected since they are not aviators, and many
people have a low concept of people of color automatically and think they
are superior people. I actually expect has out of many whit people so that
is why I make all of my flight students and employees become technician at
the same time. If you are going to enter our filed of Aerospace Sciences,
as a professor of one of the best aviation colleges in the country, I
suggest that you do your aviation vehicle research on the early VTOL
prototypes appearances and you will see that my flying saucer appearances
is far more appealing, in its underdeveloped form, them any other early
VTOL professor of concept design created, and or flow, including NASA's
test bed. Lest see if you are as god as one of my pilot students, please
ask your professors to help you in this homework assignment and then
consider e mailing me back so that I can gain confidences in your critical
thinking skills. Also review the X-prize web site, as closes as you have
inspected ours for sun professor, and count the number of supports,
sponsors, and or competitors that have skin college more related to my own,
and then ask them why the number is below three. Then think about the fact
that my people have made major contributions to the filed of flight by
crating the aircraft prop, helicopter, jet seat, air balloon, and the NASA
remote arm, and then try to explain why we are underrepresented in the
X-prize race or any other space flight endeavors. Once you have wised up
please join me in praying for there deliverance, and please remember this
harsh lesson in life. Then after you have learned the truth, please strive
to never discriminate toward anyone yourself once you enter our filed, we
don't need anymore negative personalities out their, since we are growing as
a global community now, and diversity will be the key to success, not
exclusion and racism don't to poor critical thinking skills. X-prize people
don't represent us aviators so don't fall into to the same trap as they are
in. God Bless and have a great summer vacation doing this homework
assignment, if you really are serious about your inquirer. Also please free
to come to my flight demonstration of the first man made Flying Saucer, if
you still think my concept is so far out that you cant conceive its
existences, and watch aviation change right before your eyes. Attached is the most recent article on my endeavors, perhaps this will
help in your research reference section via APA formats. Remember all
scholars research before they leap.
DOUG HAYNES


<Note: I don't remember saying my email was a homework assignment... but whatever...>

So there you have it. Take it as you will, I suppose. No need for comment from me. Oh, and it also came with an attachment from the community college of Denver, an article about Mr. Haynes endeavors... but I cant upload it... well, anyway, thats it.

<end note: I also sent another e mail to Mr. Haynes apologizing for any hostility he may have felt came from my email... simply because "Anonymous team member" makes an extremely valid point. Good show.>


EDIT: <also, it seems that Mr Haynes thought that I was also being discriminatory... I'm half caucasion, half african american... ?>

- Diadem

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Last edited by Diadem on Tue May 25, 2004 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post    Posted on: Fri May 21, 2004 11:31 am
I am extremely dubious to anyone who's first defense when their questionable claims are poked at is to play the racism card. Sorry I believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Tacking the word 'Hybrid' in front of ramjet does nothing towards making any of this believeable. There are well established limits when using chemical fuels that while I would love to see someone come up with a way that radically changes those limits nothing I've seen with this shows even the slightest indication that this is the case. In fact the only thing I can think of as far as space vehicles go that comes close to matching the performance claims they are implying is Orion, which will not work with something so small. I really do not understand why, if they have some sort of engine or drive or whatever that will accelerate them to the claimed speeds out in space why they're messing around with any sort of ramjets in the first place. Another thing that really bothers me is that this thing is far too small to match what they're claiming, it's going to have at least two hybrid ramjets(four if you go by their photoshop pictures, fuel tanks for those engines, their additional space drive that they get really hazy about whenever talking about it, fuel for that I guess, plus room for three, along with the life support systems for those three. You can claim your building a plywood prototype to save costs but if it doesn't reflect the actual vehicle it's completely pointless for anything other than something for the kids to play in out in the backyard, such as http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/mw_article.asp?cid=36984&frame=news but those guys never claimed it was anything else.

Additionally spelling that bad in this day of spell check, especially from someone who wants to be taken seriously yet isn't from another country or a socially backwards interenet kiddie is not helping.

Sorry but the kid who tried building his own nuclear reactor in his moms shed seems to not only have a better grip on reality but also a better grip on technology than these guys do.

If they do manage to succeed, more power to them but to claim racism in something like this is simply pathetic at this point. They simply have to face the fact that until they succeed they are nothing more than flying saucer wackos yapping about aliens and area 51 type stuff.

At this point in the game it probably was a mistake for them to be pulled but I'm sure that had a lot more to do with them being one of the more extremely unlikely teams to do any flying than anything else. In fact if it wasn't for the minor flap over them I would think they would have merely been the first team to be pulled rather than the only.


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Post Time for a team purge?   Posted on: Sat May 22, 2004 5:37 am
Wow, from the start I thought that BRNA was a non-credible-looking proposal, but their ejection from the X-Prize, hilarious photos notwithstanding, is a little surprising to me. While they have approximately zero promise or credibility, many other teams have an equal or lesser amount of these qualities. I can understand why you would want to keep a lot of them around, when the media says that "27 teams are vying for the X-Prize" it's great publicity. Drop the number to 26 and no one will notice, drop it to 15 and people will know something weird is going on. However, maybe now would be a good time to purge all othe paper teams that are just crudding up the atmosphere for the ones making real harware.

Good candidates for dropping, IMHO, are Acceleration Engineering, Bristol Spaceplanes, Discraft, Flight Exploration, Kelly Space/Tech, Lone Star Space Access, Micro-space, The Suborbital Corporation, and TGV rockets. Many of them you've probably never heard of before, because they've never even picked up so much as a wrench the whole time. Perhaps that might be a little too harsh, but the point remains, there are far to many teams registered for the X-Prize that aren't doing anything at all.

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Post    Posted on: Sat May 22, 2004 3:30 pm
But arent they going to be holding another X Prize competition sometime in the future? Why not just keep them around... no point in dropping them just cause they're way behind, simply because in the end, it isnt going to make any difference, is it? Just let em see it thru to the end, I guess. And BRNA's claim does seem pretty shady... but at the same time, I wonder why they were accepted, and then removed like that...

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Post    Posted on: Sat May 22, 2004 4:09 pm
it's not over until it's over, and perhaps not even then :D

if people are prepared to pay their submission fees and follow the rules and guidelines i have no problem with them at all

the ansari x-prize has the final say, i'm sure they have much better knowledge of the teams (and what they are doing) than we do. i don't think having an active internet presence should be part of the criteria - it's an engineering competition after all


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Post Following rules   Posted on: Sun May 23, 2004 3:02 am
I checked up on Mr Haynes of Blue Ridge Nebula Airlines.

I guess he's had problems following rules in the past. Here's from the Kansas Supreme Court site. (http://www.kscourts.org/ca10/cases/1999/11/98-9549.htm)

Mr. Haynes is the owner and operator of an entity known as Blue Ridge Airlines. Under the Federal Aviation Regulations, Blue Ridge is not authorized to use Beech Bonanza aircraft for its operations because this aircraft is not listed in the airline's FAA approved operating specifications. On November 9, 1996, Mr. Haynes piloted a Beech Bonanza with three other persons on board from Watkins, Colorado, to Hayes, Kansas.

On August 15, 1997, following an FAA investigation of this flight, the FAA issued an order suspending Mr. Haynes' private pilot certificate for a period of 180 days. This action was a result of the FAA's determination that in piloting the November 9, 1996 flight, Mr. Haynes had violated certain Federal Aviation Regulations including: (1) acting as pilot-in-command on a Beech Bonanza aircraft which was not authorized to be used for a Federal Aviation Regulation Part 135 air carrier operation; (2) piloting this flight without having passed a written or oral examination in the aircraft during the previous twelve months; (3) piloting this flight without having passed a competency check in the Beech Bonanza or equivalent aircraft during the previous twelve months; (4) piloting this flight without a commercial pilot certificate; (5) piloting this flight without an instrument rating or an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category rating; (6) piloting this flight without having passed a flight check in the Beech Bonanza aircraft during the previous twelve months; and (7) piloting this flight without completing the initial or recurrent training phase of the appropriate training program during the previous twelve months. ...

Mr. Haynes appealed the FAA decision to the Board, which set a hearing date for January 13, 1998. ... Mr. Haynes did not appear for the hearing, and after taking testimony, the [Administrative Law Judge] affirmed the FAA's suspension of Mr. Haynes' license.


and from the summary of the FAA's case , (http://www.faa.gov/agc/cpwebsite/1999%20cases/1999-15.htm ) ,

...Blue Ridge Airlines’ claims that [FAA]’s case was contaminated by perjury and by racial discrimination. ...

he seems quick to claim racial discrimination for any action taken against him.


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Post    Posted on: Sun May 23, 2004 3:56 am
hehe, ya, we've all seen it, theres a link somewhere earlier in this topic... it seems that Mr. Haynes likes to fall back on the racial discrimination defense a whole lot... justified or not, it angers me that he makes the claim so lightly... our ancestors didnt fight for civil rights just so he could claim discrimination every friggin time he gets in trouble or something doesn't go the way he likes...

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Post oh well   Posted on: Sun May 23, 2004 4:45 am
Sorry, I didn't catch the small post that cited that court case. I was also following up on pilot and aircraft registrations since I went to BRNA web site. Sorry for taking up more bandwidth.


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Post    Posted on: Sun May 23, 2004 5:33 am
Hehe, s'coo. For those who dunno how to interperet the jargon in that court decision, IFR means Instrument Flight Rules (meaning flight ops while conditions require an instrument rating) an instrument rating is basically certifiying a pilot to fly when he can't see outside and has to fly using just instruments in the plane. and he had no commercial lcertificate, which means he shouldn't even be flying for money, and he didnt have his air transport pilot cert., so he's not supposed to fly people for money, either... those are big nono's, and it doesn't say much for his character that he would do something like that... but as always, there may have been extenuating circumstances to which we are not privy (though I couldn't imagine what). Oh, he also used a plane not certified for air carrier operations under part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations, and he apparently didn't even complete the required exams, currency req.'s, or competency checks... that is just a huge list of bad, bad things he did. I can say for almost certain that he isn't a pilot anymore... or if he is, not for long...

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Post    Posted on: Mon May 24, 2004 10:25 pm
I am in shock!
This guy was not a victim of racism, he's delusional.
How on earth did XPrize let him compete? I imagine is that degree he mentions. Flying saucers (like the flapjack or skimmer) are aerodinamically sound so, on paper it could sound relatively acceptable. But this guy clearly has no scientificall work behind him. Offering flights to other galaxies? The XPrize organization commited a mayor blunder here. This looks like a 100% quack.

Team Member has some valid points however. If you look at De Leon's website, it's pretty lousy. His rockep prototipe (the one that blew up) looks like an ugly toy (he should not put so many pictures of it). His space suit looks like a parka. However, if you look at the web site of AATE (the academic research organization he is involved in) has much better pictures (and information) on the space suit, and it works! Tested by NASA and in Argentina. So yes, some teams work with a shoestring budget (and as a chilean I know a lot of aerospace people in Argentina and their gobernment makes things really hard for them) but that team actually has advanced more than for example Pioneer Rocketplanes, a team with a leader with experience in hight tech with the USAF.

What clearly should have given away that this crazy UFO team is no good was their absurd web site claims (trips to Pluto) and their legal problems with the FAA. I guess the XPrize people just got scared seeing those horrible pictures of the wooden saucer and figured they would end up as a laughing stock. Their credibility just suffered. Put these guys next to Ruttan?
If they had been more discreet they could have gotten away with it, like the other flying saucer gonowere team. But what could they have achieved? This guys must look for publicity, or be ludicrously optimistic (like Ed Wood). The other teams that are going no where at least have this hope: Rutan/Canadian Arrow win the XPrize and space travel becomes the next Internet so inverstors start dumping cash in the other teams. That may be enough reason to join, use X Prize as a media relations gig to get an investor. (That's not necesarily a bad idea).
But Mr. wooden flying saucer is just nuts.
I have seen real mockups and prototypes, and even here in Latin America where aerospace tends to be poor, we can use professionalism and hard work. That always shows (and we do beat world records. ENAER has the speed record for propeler airplanes). But Amateurism also shows.
And I can misspell all I want in an Internet forum. Wen I present a translation for my boss I check it first!
:shock:


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Post    Posted on: Tue May 25, 2004 3:46 am
george wrote:
And I can misspell all I want in an Internet forum. Wen I present a translation for my boss I check it first!
:shock:


Seriously though unlike the BRNA guy you're not living in the US, possibly a native and supposedly a professor on top of that. With the strange oddities of english, someone who started out with a different native language is expected to make mis-spellings. Someone who lives here and is trying to establish outrageous claims is expected to do a much better job of presenting themselves. In their case spelling counts and it's counting against them.


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Post new paragraphs   Posted on: Tue May 25, 2004 8:02 pm
The occasional new paragraph (as opposed to one long incoherent block of text) would go a long way in adding readability to his communications. :?

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Post    Posted on: Tue May 25, 2004 8:38 pm
I was re visiting Blue Ridge's page and it hit me: they talk about UFO and not Flying Saucer as they should (saucers are aerdinamically sound, UFOs are, well the point is that we don't know what they are).

Looking caerfully at their impresive (in a bad sense) photos I noticed they did not build a saucer! The thing is square! That's why the talked of naturally stealthy features, they wanted a F117 look! (As someone said, what's the use for stealth for a civilian craft? It's none, it's a waste of money and a hazard. Imagine air trafic control: "Blue Ridge UFO, WHERE THE HECK ARE YOU!"

More likely wood was not a good material modeling choice. Obvious choices like metal welding and plastic moulding probably were to dam hard. So, for Blue Ridge's next prototipe I recomend: WICKER! The material of choice for advanced basket weaving prototipes. That way the might make their thing round shaped and more streamlined.


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Post    Posted on: Tue May 25, 2004 8:47 pm
I gave up on this when he asked me not to be discriminatory to him in his e-mail... I'm an African American myself... in fact, I'm half caucasion/african american.... (I think the term is Milatto, lol) and I've never considered myself a self hating person... :lol::roll:

Quote:
Then after you have learned the truth, please strive
to never discriminate toward anyone yourself once you enter our filed, we
don't need anymore negative personalities out their, since we are growing as
a global community now, and diversity will be the key to success, not
exclusion and racism don't to poor critical thinking skills.


Huh? :roll:

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Post    Posted on: Tue May 25, 2004 9:31 pm
Diadem wrote:
Quote:
Then after you have learned the truth, please strive
to never discriminate toward anyone yourself once you enter our filed, we
don't need anymore negative personalities out their, since we are growing as
a global community now, and diversity will be the key to success, not
exclusion and racism don't to poor critical thinking skills.


Huh? :roll:


Uh, yeah. I'm thinkin' it's BRN with the "poor critical thinking skills". Maybe they should've tried a little harder in that Remedial English 101 class thingy....

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