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Germ or kind of linkage?

Posted by: Ekkehard Augustin - Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:06 am
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Germ or kind of linkage? 
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Post Germ or kind of linkage?   Posted on: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:06 am
There several threads in this section where electricity infrastructurs and technologies are discussed. They include the delivery of electricity from Earth by radioisotope-batteries to some degree. The aspect in focus here is "delivery".

There too are threads about water and providing water at or for Mars and this explicitly includes the moon in some threads - and water too is a topüic at the ISS. ISS is dependent of the delivery of water from Earth - again the focus is on "delivery".

Next food has to be delivered.

The ISS to is dependent from moving the waste of the consumption of water and food somewhere - which is the opposite of delivery - and this "opposite" has to be included into the focus.

These deliveries and their oppsites seem to be acting as ecological linkages between Earth and its clients - the clients being ISS now, the moon in the nearby future and Mars in the a little bit farer future.

If now the number of people living at the clients grows then these deliveries will have to be increased if there no sufficient ressources at those clients - and significant portions of the ressources the earthian ecological system is depending on need to moved to the moon for example. To avoid damages of the earthiand ecological system redelivery of the waste to Earth might be required - as if the waste has been produced on EEarth as currently is the case.

What technologies could assist that? And what amounts of cargo capacities or what number of reusable vehicles will be required?

The question comes up to me because according to the article "Japan Eyes Future Manned Moon Base, Space Shuttle" ( http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/ja ... 50228.html ) the Japans are aiming at a lunar station too. This means that in about thirty years ther will be Americans, Chinese, Japans and supposedly Russinas will live on the moon. I suppose they will be at least twelve people together - probably more. They are not that quickly reached by ships as the ISS and they will produce very much more waste, consume very much more water and food. So the ships will extend our ecological system there. ...



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Post Re: Germ or kind of linkage?   Posted on: Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:25 am
Ekkehard Augustin wrote:
This means that in about thirty years ther will be Americans, Chinese, Japans and supposedly Russinas will live on the moon. I suppose they will be at least twelve people together - probably more. They are not that quickly reached by ships as the ISS and they will produce very much more waste, consume very much more water and food. So the ships will extend our ecological system there. ...


It is possible that the amount of cargo that it is necessary to ship to the moon will not be very much more than that needed for the ISS. If oxygen can be extracted from lunar resources this will have a big impact on the mass of the deliveries required. Also growing plants for food on the moon will reduce the burden further.

Any base will probably be largely self sufficient as this will be a requirement for a future Mars mission and space agencies will wish to try out technology that will lead to this in preparation for Mars. As for waste products produced by astronauts these will probably be recycled as much as possible with anything unable to be recycled initially dumped on the lunar surface. The only things that will be returned to Earth are the crew and experiments that need further analysis.

As for vehicles that will be required for this the thread on Lunar Touism gives some ideas about this. I favour something like a DC-X derived lunar lander which would move things on and off the lunar surface to a ferry shuttle that moves between Earth and Moon obits.

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Post    Posted on: Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:46 pm
Up to now nothing like that martian sea is known at the moon. The amount of ice isn't measured yet and it ssems to be mixed with dust. And I compared the number of crew-member - two or three at the ISS and twelve at least at the moon because of four nations sending crews.

Are the existing recycling technologies sufficient? Do we have sufficient ecologic knowledge and experience to be sure that self-sustaining will work?

If not, some work might be done here that could cause a WTN XPRIZE or a Centennial Challenges Prize.



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Post    Posted on: Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:48 pm
Ekkehard Augustin wrote:
Are the existing recycling technologies sufficient? Do we have sufficient ecologic knowledge and experience to be sure that self-sustaining will work?

If not, some work might be done here that could cause a WTN XPRIZE or a Centennial Challenges Prize.


As I understand it there is still quite a way to go to make recycling systems reliable enough to use long term (hence the recent breakdowns of the Russian Elektron system on the ISS). However this technology will have to be developed to make a Mars mission feasible otherwise the amount of oxygen and food required on the two year round trip to Mars would be to large to make it viable. IMHO a lunar base would be an ideal place to test such systems as the reduced gravity would be closer to a Mars environment than the ISS weightlessness is.

The use of ISR on the moon would develop equipment and techniques to use on Mars later, in both instances ice is likely to be highly contaminated with dust and an automatic means of separation will need to be worked out.

I like the idea of a Centennial prize for a working recycling system as it is something that would be open to the whole of industry rather than just Aerospace. Have NASA posted a list of possible prizes yet? Its all gone a bit quiet, they've had a year to come up with something.

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Post    Posted on: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:06 pm
Concerning experimenting and testing I agree completely - but systems and technologies in test and under experimenting are not a good choice for use as part of a permanent lunar station from my point of view. Such a station has to based on matured and experienced technologies and systems.

As far as I know NASA has set aside recycling systems and the like reagrding their use at a first manned Mars mission - it's ESA who considers such things.

I don't know of a Centennial Challenges Prize list of NASA. But there is a section about it where proposals and ideas can and should be discussed - why not work out a CCP idea there? Not the technology but a prize concept that seriously should and could proposed to NASA? There are a few ideas about closed loop systems - but for prizes concerning ecological systems and required technologies a new thread should be started.



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Post    Posted on: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:18 pm
I started to think about a different linkage between Mars and Earth. Assumed astronauts landing on Mars will leave there their biological waste then this would tend to enrich the amounts of nitrogen on Mars. This also would happen if plants are carried and left there - even if only remnants of the plants are left there.

Based on this very few other plants could survive there if the nitrogen would be concentrated in an area that is sufficiently protected against radiation and the like.

As decades and centuries go by and astornauts land there again and again the nitrogen would be enriched more and thus more plants might survive there.

Now there is one plant the name of I can't recall right now. It is that aggressive that it grows over everything and indirectly kills other planst. There were reports a few years ago that this plant alreday has grown over an area in the us as large as the german state Brandenburg. So one day this plant could be taken there and when it would dy it would provide the nitrogen it consumed. And if not the germ but a grown instance of the plant would taken there it would contribute to the amount of martian nitrogen.

But this nitrogen would reduce the amount of nitrogen available on Earth.

What about it? And what negative impacts are to be expected to the earthian ecology and environment if the reduction of the level of nitrogen become significant?



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Post    Posted on: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:53 am
Four days ago I posted in another thread the following:

Quote:
Ekkehard Augustin Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because of the threads discussing Terraforming, growing food and the like I sometimes think about the partially very different compositions of the planets of the solar system.

These difference make me think about the possibility that there may be permanent dependencies between planets to keep their inhabitability once they are terraformed. It also may be that they are permanently dependent of the Earth since Earth seems to offer very much of required chemicals needed to terraform a planet and to keep it terraformed.

On the other hand Earth may have advantages from terraforming the other planets and assisting in keeping them terraformed. In that case it seems to me as if there would have to be a permanent exchnage of chemicals etc. between those planets and Earth.

This apperas to me as if it would be a system-wide ecology as a whole that would have to be assisted by permanent traffic between all the planets involved and Earth. It would be similar to Earth as a planet where some regions are inhabitable while others are no - like the majority of the regions of the Mount Everest or the deserts.

What about it?



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Klaus Schmidt answered that it seems to be a question of energy to him. That other thread is particularly about Mars-adjusted life while here the focus is on the possibility that something is taken away from one planet and not given back later in the form of waste because the waste is dumped into space or - more interesting - left on another planet.

Something like that might occur to do terraforming also. And since there is only one other planet in the solar system that has an atmosphere rich of nitrogen - the saturnian Moon Titan - each concept of terraforming might require to remove extremely large amounts of nitrogen from the earthian atmosphere and to transfer it to a planet to be terraformed.

To do that may be dangerous and destructive to Earth and its habitability - pressure will be reduced, plants may dy and not be replenished like at present - and much more.

On the other hand on the other planet there may be chemicals etc. that plants etc. lack on Earth.

This is the idea behind "Germ or kind of Linkage" and behind the thought that terraforming might mean such a linkage - it might be required to do permanent exchanges of chemicals, nitrogen etc. between planets.

To carry them between the planets by spacecrafts then is nothing else then a substitute for earthian winds, earthian streams of water like the Gulf Stream or rivers flowing etc.

The idea in my mind is something similar to the question for the difference between one huge planet formed by combining Earth and the other planet physically which would allow winds and streams to go from Earth to that planet and the real situation that they can't be combined and thus no winds and streams can go from Earth to that planet and back.

This is looking to me as if it is of meaning for terraforming, colonization of other planets and interplanetary space traffic.



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Post    Posted on: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:21 pm
The amount of material (say nitrogen) transferred from earth to the moon or mars by expeditions would be miniscule.
Even if it got to the point where gigantic space freighters carried loads of nitrogen between the planets it would still only amount to a tiny fraction of a part of a percent of the total nitrogen available on the earth.
While in theory the flights between planets would create a sort of ecological connection with a flow of chemicals back and forth the effects would be minor.
Look at how the flow of chemicals around the world by ship today redistributes chemicals like oils, fertilizers, iron ore, bauxite and so on.
The net mass and chemistry of the continents remains virtually unaffected despite the ship loads of bauxite arriving every day.
A more pressing problem is where to find a better source for some of these chemicals than earth.
The moon shows a decided lack of water (so far)
But there is plenty of oxygen in the soils.
It might be that (initially at least) it's cheaper to just cart hydrogen up from earth and burn it to get water.
Sourcing nitrogen on the moon is a problem.
And so on.
If sources for these and other chemicals can not be found on the moon and later mars, then mining an asteroid for the chemicals you want may by an option. It would certainly be cheaper than bringing it from earth.

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Post    Posted on: Fri May 01, 2009 11:51 am
I was thinking about involving that neptunian moon here that blows nitrogen into space. That nitrogen might be harvested and brought to Mars. If there would be microbes or so on that neptunian Moon Mars and that moon could be kept in touch by space vehicles to keep the lunar life and in parallel to improve the habitability of Mars by the nitrogen from the neptunian system.

This way the linkage would be enhanced to a net and the exchanges of ´such ressources between each two planets might be accelerated.



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