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Posted by: eXcaliberZ - Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:49 am
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Space Station Commander
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Post    Posted on: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:45 pm
Vendigo wrote:
Is this thread supposed to be a joke? 500 to 1000 is so ridiculously absurd figure I can't reallly comment on it. I suggest considering how HOT the laser would get in action.

Another thing; let's assume the target is is ten feet in diameter (to the benefit of the pro side). At geo, the allowable circular error would be about 0.43 microradians, or same as hitting a this mark here --> * <-- a mile away. Sure, you don't need to move your aim QUICKLY, but you do need to move it ACCURATELY. By the way, it takes over 0,1 seconds for a laser pulse to reach LEO from GEO, at which time the target can move, say, quarter of a mile. "point and shoot"? No way.

Furthermore, this thread is very off-topic for the forum. For one, it suggests unilateral control of space. Second, it portrays the very antithesis of X-prize ideals. Third, it's miserably bad science.


500-1000 is pretty absurd compared to modern lasers, but you either need a lot of lasers or one that can either fire very fast for a second or two or can continuously fire for a second or two for a good SDI shield. i know that means tons of excess heat, but it's not like there's not plenty of *space* for that to go out into, it's also quite cold out there.

with the speed the laser travels at, and the possible precision of computers and well engineered parts, it may be like hitting a spot like "--> * <--" a mile away, but that's still more than possible if you can detect its location to the requisite number of significant figures. look again at the 20 year minimum time envelope, i didn't say we were gonna launch this thing tommorow, our engineering and our software has the potential to tackle the task at least in theory now, the issue is a) the laser itself and b) getting the thing put together in geo orbit, or else building something small enough to launch from earth into geo orbit.

i disagree with the thread being off topic, but i do agree that it is all of the reasons you gave for its off-topic-ness. sadly a space based SDI shield would be terribly difficult to build to be able to stop a virtually unlimited number of nukes, but it's still easier than a ground based shield. a limited SDI shield i think wouldn't be too hard, though it would cost a ton of money (by limited i mean stop 1-10 nukes). it might be made more manageable by having several countries kick in to build it, then have impartial people run it, kind of like ISS but actually work and not have anyone from the countries that built it run it (almost certainly from one or more stations on the ground).


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Post    Posted on: Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:49 am
The StarWars Satelites don't need to be in geosychronous orbit though do they? Multiple Sats on multiple orbits to cover (erm, protect) multiple countries. Like many other sats, they'd also be able to swing onto other orbits to cover areas of interest. Say, to make sure that there are at least one of them covering a suspect territory all the time. I don't see suspect countries or territories agreeing to have an enemies weapons platform permanently in geosychronous orbit above their country.

And personally, if my country had joined a consortium and paid 30% of the cost, I'd like my country to be protected completely, and that wouldn't mean giving control of my defences to anybody else. Just imagine the politics that would result if an independent body was in charge. "Excuse me Mr Independant Defence People, we've noticed a missile lauch from Naughty Country B, tageted on one of my interests, can you please shoot it down? Thanks" "I'm sorry, but your request has been denied due to the some unforceen political reason."

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Post    Posted on: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:10 pm
Sean Girling wrote:
And personally, if my country had joined a consortium and paid 30% of the cost, I'd like my country to be protected completely, and that wouldn't mean giving control of my defences to anybody else. Just imagine the politics that would result if an independent body was in charge. "Excuse me Mr Independant Defence People, we've noticed a missile lauch from Naughty Country B, tageted on one of my interests, can you please shoot it down? Thanks" "I'm sorry, but your request has been denied due to the some unforceen political reason."


that's the whole point, the independent control would have to be truly politically independent in order for that to work. the reason for that is if two or more of the countries that built it got in a war, then one would already have the 'inside scoop' on the platform, so an internal takeover of it would be possible, allowing them to shoot missiles without retaliation. such a scenario would obviously be unlikely, but it would be severe enough to justify preemptive measures.


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Post    Posted on: Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:45 am
Okay...

So why not use these gatling lasers to shoot down the SDI satellites and then launch your missles?

Will SDI work against stealth bombers? If not why not stealth a missile...

Any technology can be countered... its just that SDI is a really expensive one trick pony. Once it is countered all that investment is lost.

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Post    Posted on: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:04 am
Mmm! I can see your point. And I can't argue around it, because that is exactly how we got nukes. A couple of our friends got nukes, and they would deter all from attacking us because nobody wants a nuke war. But instead of halting war and agreeing that we won the arms race, they decided to aquire the same technology. Oh dear.

Now it's going to be expensive to keep up with each other. As one group of nations put up their versions, others will have to counter or join in, or at least try to. Nope, better that we aggree to conventional warfare, and contribute together to a better future off planet.

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Post    Posted on: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:52 pm
haha, or instead of conventional warfare, let's just section off an area of the moon as a free combat zone for anyone that wants to fight another country. pollution doesn't matter up there and there aren't any civilians, we could make whoever lost there have to pay up or else they'll get screwed over by the *conventional* weapons platforms in said moon section. that way, we avoid the great majority of casualties, eliminate environmental harm, and get to use our nastiest weapons all in one! great idea right?








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Post    Posted on: Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:15 pm
Then what would Afghanistan be good for?

What I was mentioning was that it has to be a lot easier to shoot satellites down than to hit ground targets from a satellite.

For example... How fast could the air force replace the entire GPS constellation?

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Post    Posted on: Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:57 am
the only reason for that is because there are so many more good ground resources, and we really have no effective way of protecting satellites from physical attack (as opposed to the radiation kind, eg. laser). by the time we truly have space developed well, i suspect it'll be the other way around. after all, it's easier to maneuver in space, and you can put a lot more powerful weapons on your ship.


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Post    Posted on: Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:55 am
Thats true...

Reminds one of the classic Sci-Fi Orbital Bombardment!

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Post    Posted on: Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:50 am
I like the idea of a zone where countries fight out their differences. Have you read "Kiln People" by David Brin? He touches upon that very idea, though from a different angle. I like it. Almost civilised, Ha!

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Post    Posted on: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:32 pm
yes i have read kiln people, that's an awesome book (like all of david brin's), and that's what i was thinking of with the designated combat zone, unfortunately i doubt it would work.


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Post    Posted on: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:03 am
All inhabitants of sector 7, please report to the nearest disintegration chamber, you have been declared casualties of war.

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Post    Posted on: Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:59 am
It really only works when sides that would fight in the "zone" are evenly matched.

At the moment you would be hard pressed to find two countries that want to fight the same way.

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Post    Posted on: Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:08 am
Yeah, the superpowers today enjoy air superiority, and a combat zone would reduce it's effectiveness. SDI would just be a higher version of that, able to "defend" against any target within it's sphere of influence.

Even if the military don't put weapons platforms up there, I suppose, should there be a great rise in independent orbital facilities, then eventually we'd need some sort of orbital police force, and they, in turn would need some sort of upper hand. That might just be the beginning of something.

Anyone read Peter F Hamiltons Nights Dawn Trilogy? The last book makes extensive use of SDI platforms, but they weren't the most potent weapon. Hamilton explored using ships to accelerate objects and dropping these objects at extreme velocities through the atmosphere onto targets. Sort of like small meteor impacts. He went further though. A number of ships dropping a number of objects to hit one after the other just behind the previous impacts shockwave to build and amplify the destructive power. Nice simple rock throwing turned nasty.

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Post    Posted on: Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:08 am
Yeah, the superpowers today enjoy air superiority, and a combat zone would reduce it's effectiveness. SDI would just be a higher version of that, able to "defend" against any target within it's sphere of influence.

Even if the military don't put weapons platforms up there, I suppose, should there be a great rise in independent orbital facilities, then eventually we'd need some sort of orbital police force, and they, in turn would need some sort of upper hand. That might just be the beginning of something.

Anyone read Peter F Hamiltons Nights Dawn Trilogy? The last book makes extensive use of SDI platforms, but they weren't the most potent weapon. Hamilton explored using ships to accelerate objects and dropping these objects at extreme velocities through the atmosphere onto targets. Sort of like small meteor impacts. He went further though. A number of ships dropping a number of objects to hit one after the other just behind the previous impacts shockwave to build and amplify the destructive power. Nice simple rock throwing turned nasty.

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