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An-225 as white knight?

Posted by: Alessandro - Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:49 pm
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An-225 as white knight? 
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Post    Posted on: Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:35 am
Hello, Sev,

I don't find where is the connection between the Atlas rocket and JP Aerospace's DSS and ATO is.

The ATO doesn't use a rocket and it doesn't use rocket propellent and may be much lighter than an Atlas rocket for this reason. According to the JP Aerospce homepage the ATO will use an ion drive and need one week time to reach the orbit. The wings are much larger than those of an airplane so a comparison to a known airplane may be problematic

I started a thread to ask jpowell if the wings have air chambers and didn't have a look to that thread since then yet - but if there are really air chambers within the wings then this may result in keeping the ATO at an altitude similar to that of DSS when the ATO reentered and the ion drive is shutdowned.

What about it based on these informations?



Dipl.-Volkswirt (bdvb) Augustin (Political Economist)

PS: Perhaps the ATO is lighter than an airplne too - I will ask jpowell.


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Post    Posted on: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:03 pm
AN-225 would not just be used for HOTOl like missions. It would make a great tanker C-5 A replacement. This makes it superior to dedicated first stage systems like Rutan wants.


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Post    Posted on: Tue May 10, 2005 8:12 am
The article "t/Space Offers an Option for Closing Shuttle, CEV Gap" ( www.space.com/spacenews/businessmonday_050509.html ) seems to assist such ideas like the AN 225 - the article says that

Quote:
...The CXV would be attached to its booster and carried aloft under the belly of a large carrier aircraft to an altitude of 7,600 meters for release and launch...
.

This wouldn't be an AN 225 but it would point to the possibility to use one.

The CXV couldn't be an ASP competitor - but Scaled Composites could get experiences out of it to develop an ASP vehicle...



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Post    Posted on: Wed May 18, 2005 2:41 pm
"large carrier aircraft" == B-52 or close relative. Cargo planes are designed to carry stuff inside them, and not let go of it until they're back on the ground. This is a problem if a rocket is supposed to be fired off somewhere in the flight profile. Of course, the possibility exists to do what the British did with the Lancaster bombers during WWII when they wanted to use their 2,000lb bomb: strip everything possible, and cut a huge hole in the lower fuselage.

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Post    Posted on: Wed May 18, 2005 10:16 pm
Once the Shuttle is retired, the 747 orbiter ferry craft become available provided they are rescued. Here in Alabama--we may win an Airbus tanker plant from Eads in Mobile--a port where EELV pieces could be off-loaded. We even have a contact for Antonov here who did work for them.

Some links:
http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/searc ... %2BAntonov
http://www.rsvpair.com/findAirport/icao/KBFM.html
http://www.heavyliftgroup.com/directory ... ?UserId=40
http://www.antonovairlines.co.uk/antono ... v-news.asp
http://www.buran.ru/htm/mtkkmain.htm

With Antonov having good British contacts, perhaps Branson could contact Airbus--put in a good word--expand a hanger for Tankers here in my state, Rutan could build the Maks type vehicle and forget about the White Knight II, and Antonov could have a home here as well.


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Post    Posted on: Wed May 18, 2005 10:49 pm
[quote="SawSS1Jun21]
I wonder if Black Armadillo could make orbit if it was launched at 78000 feet and mach 3?[/quote]

no


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Post    Posted on: Thu May 19, 2005 4:04 pm
LOL, I know that, of course. That remark was intended to make people think, though, about the possible advantages of air launch and/or aerodyamic lift as a component of space launch. The specific invokation of Mr. Carmack's ship was deliberate, as he and I had engaged in a brief exchange about hypersonic atmospheric craft shortly before (this was almost a year ago).

While I'm sure that John probably saw that remark, (he is an active reader of these forums, and I'm sure the mention of his ship caught his attention) he probably considers me a nuisance and so he never plugged the numbers into his spreadsheet to find out just how high/fast it WOULD get. That ('Dillo) is a different ship now anyway.

On the other hand, http://www.thespacereview.com/article/371/1 quotes him as recently saying “I am more sympathetic than I used to be about sticking rocket engines on the backs of planes,” ...so you never know...


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Post    Posted on: Thu May 19, 2005 4:47 pm
Sticking a rocket engine on the back of a plane, a-la Velacruiser is not the same as air-launch, of course, and frankly I still don't understand why air-launch is such a great thing.

But my opinion goes up against current successes. I still think ground launch, whether it's a winged vehicle or not, will ultimately be cheapter then air-launch. SpaceX launches will be cheaper then Pegasus, for instance.


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Post    Posted on: Thu May 19, 2005 5:41 pm
Rutan's reason to prefer air launch - as well as those of t/Space - is safety. As this safety is his main argument against the existing regulations he will keep his view to personal spaceflight as it is.

And he has called good witnesses: experiences with air flight safety and the dmage caused to Columbia at vertical launch.

The look to the regulations really may mean that orbital personal spaceflight under regulatory and political aspects has a chance in the long run only if sir launch is applied - this could be Rutan's thoughts (too). In this case it's nothing but consequent to develop and orbital air launched vehicle.

Rutan hasn't been reported to compete for the XPRIZE yet - but this may change. So currently the only air launched orbital project would be the CXV but to secure the future of personal spaceflight there may be air launch competition for the ASP by t/Space with Rutan in front. Or by Scaled if they get another angel investment.



Dipl.-Volkswirt (bdvb) Augustin (Political Economist)


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Post    Posted on: Thu May 19, 2005 5:51 pm
spacecowboy wrote:
Cargo planes are designed to carry stuff inside them, and not let go of it until they're back on the ground.


Not so. Drouge chutes & launch sled. Been done. October, 1974. C-5 and a Minuteman ICBM.

I found a decent pdf article about various air launch systems. It describes internal carriage as being favorable for many reasons. In the end, it is an advertisement for SwiftLaunch, but it contains useful history, overview of some recent efforts, and some rough technical data about the whole topic. It is pre-Xprize, so a little dated, but informative nevertheless.

http://mae.ucdavis.edu/faculty/sarigul/ ... 1-4619.pdf

Bottom line is, air launching is simply a different way to look at a first stage. It should neither be glorified nor vilified, but should rightly be considered as a viable method for aiding in the chucking of stuff into the void.

PS: you mean ASP, Ekke. Rutan has not been reported as competing for ASP.


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Post    Posted on: Thu May 19, 2005 6:34 pm
More news: I called a contact of mine over at Rus-Sell. Not only is Energiya trying to Run Semyonov away--but the group that runs the AN-225 has gone bankrupt.

Not due to lack of sales--but because they cannot fill their orders fast enough. They have one plane flying--and another bogged down in construction. A C-5 replacement is needed--and with an Airbus plant coming to Mobile or Florida--and Allen's new wealth--that AN-225 could be brought here to the states to serve not only as White Knight II--but to fill orders--perhaps under gov't contract. Then all Rutan needs to do is build an interim HOTOL/MAKS type craft--which should be well within his capability. This way, he needs not spend a dime on White Knight in house--and AN-225 would be self supporting when you factor both spaceflight and heavy-transport together--no just one or the other.

They can't fill transport orders fast enough. The AN-225 is a valuable asset--and needs to be preserved.

Website contact info:

http://www.heavyliftgroup.com/contact.asp
http://www.heavyliftgroup.com/directory ... ?UserId=40

I think Branson should serve as a go between-since Air Foyle HeavyLift LTD is in the UK.
Inform Rutan of this development.

I want to see AN-225 put into production in the worst way. We lost Energiya Buran due to a hanger collpase. Let's not see this asset go the same way.


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Post    Posted on: Thu May 19, 2005 7:10 pm
Of course by the time the roof collapsed on Buran it was only good for museum duty anyway. It's airframe was bent from the landing it took on it's sole reentry, and Russia's ability to produce the Energya is long since gone.


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Post    Posted on: Fri May 20, 2005 6:41 am
Please don't forget that this is the Bigelow's America's Space Prize section - to win it Rutan really would need to have a larger White Knight and he would have to fund it privately. He can't base it on governmental money as he can und would if t/Space and thus he himself too gets the order to build the CXV.

By the CXV Rutan only will get the experiences and insights he may be seeking and requiring to be able to enter the ASP competition: If Rutan competes for the ASP there will be a new White Knight.



Dipl.-Volkswirt (bdvb) Augustin (Political Economist)


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Post    Posted on: Fri May 20, 2005 10:11 pm
With the AN-225 suddenly available--IIRC--there is no reason why he can't get some gov't money from Alabama. Even though you have heard me dog him--I would much rather he have the $200 million Governor Bob Riley is considering giving to Birmingham for a stupid domed stadium. Alabama would actually be a good second base for him. There are light airports--and a good sized one in Tuscaloosa all but unused.

He should call 1-334-353-1717

I think he just might walk away with some funding--he and Mr. Allen--if they cooperate.

I really don't want that AN-225 in the scrapyard.

PS This link is interesting. I wonder if this could help Rutan:
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/aerospace-05k.html


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Post    Posted on: Sun May 22, 2005 7:47 am
Hello, publiusr,

are you responding to my last post?

The ASP rules explicitly say that a vehicle competing for the ASP must be privately funded totally. This rule wouldn't be fulfilled if Rutan would use the Antonov or any money or gift by the governor of Alabama or any stae or country else.

For this reason he will have to build another White Knight if he decides to compete for the ASP.



Dipl.-Volkswirt (bdvb) Augustin (Political Economist)


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