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Two progresses to be reported

Posted by: Ekkehard Augustin - Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:08 am
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Two progresses to be reported 
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Post Two progresses to be reported   Posted on: Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:08 am
The german general public science journal "Bild der Wissenschaft" ("Image of Science" perhaps in English) under www.wissenschaft.de is reporting the following technological relevant news today.

1. Scientists have reached a new record of length in producing nanocarbontubes. The length has been 4 centimeters at a thickness of 1.32 to 2.25 nanometers - this formerly was possible only concerning tubes of significant more thickness that had several walls. In comparison to the lengths required for space requirements this doesn't seem to be worth this post - but the journal is reporting the method of production and it may be appliable to the production of lengths interesting for space in the case of thicker cables.

2. Scientists have successfully synchronized two clocks over a distance of three kilometers by quantum correlation. This reminds me to thoughts worked out in a study to be read at the NIAC homepage.

Both articles refer to english or american scientific journals. If someone is intereted I'll tell the titles etc..



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Post    Posted on: Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:30 pm
Yeah, I would like to know. :D


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Post    Posted on: Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:59 pm
Hello, Rubbernecker,

the links are as follows:

Nanocarbontubes:

www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?fil ... t1216.html

www.lanl.gov/worldview/news/releases/ar ... -076.shtml



Synchronization of clocks by quantum correlation:

apl.aip.org/ (please wait at least until 9/27 - according to "Bild der Wissenschaft")



I didn't read them yet after reading the german article but the translation may be shortened and not quite correct due to differences between the both languages that cannot been handled sufficiently.



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Last edited by Ekkehard Augustin on Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Post    Posted on: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:47 pm
Thanks Ekkehard. :)

I look forward to the "Synchronization of clocks by quantum correlation." Hopefully they will a bit longer than the other two articles. :lol:


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Post    Posted on: Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:11 pm
nice find. it looks like space elevators may, at least in theory, be closer than we think.

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Post    Posted on: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:05 am
This morning I found an additional article - sorry, no link has been listed - saying that japanes scientists have succeeded in quantum communication via a net of three photons. To me this seems to be another progress.

Please note - this is the fourth report of progress within the short time of two or three years.

Might quantum communication become worth a prize in the nearby future?



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Post    Posted on: Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:50 pm
Quantum communication would be amazing and revolutionary, but it would put powerful communication buisness out of work, so it might be a bit hard to 'brake that technology in' when it gets to a state or realistic implimentation.

All this nano technology I find absolutly amazing. Its like the wave of the future, and really shows off what humanity is capable of. I hope people start using it soon, I see it being able to go a long way. If you could develop some sort of 'mass production' methods for that nano carbon tubing, I think the technology could really pick up - at a top of 4 cm, we kinda got a ways to go compared to the what is it 100 or so Km into orbit?

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Post    Posted on: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:04 am
1. Quantum communication

This technology not necessaryly will put out of work current communication business. One of it's essential advantages is that the transmission of Data etc. doesn't require time where as radio communication does.

This advantage is of great meaning for communication to Mars and all other places like thtis that are at least as far away as Mars is. This means increased control - especially it means real-time-control at that places of NASA. If quantum communication could be applied at the manned Mars mission to take place around 2015 (or so) this would mean increased safety.



Additionaly quantum communication will reduce the requirements to increase the Deep Space Network of NASA which is very costly.

2. The fact that the recently produced nanocarbontube is 4 cm long I understand as a lenght the scientists decided to terminate the experiment beacuse of success. They have tested a method and a new smaller diameter of tube. As they said in the article they could have continued the experiment as long as they wished. But there were no additional insights to be won by increasing the length - as I understand the article.

So it will be very interesting what next they will test. The method cam be improved I think, the nanocarbon tube too I suppose. And they will test the abilities of the new thinner and longer "cable".

So don't lokk at the short lengthe - they would have made it longer if it were interesting in the scientific sense. But this seems to be the case in the practical sense only.



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Post    Posted on: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:21 pm
Ekkehard Augustin wrote:
1. Quantum communication

This technology not necessaryly will put out of work current communication business. One of it's essential advantages is that the transmission of Data etc. doesn't require time where as radio communication does.


Quantum teleportation does not allow for superliminal communications. You still need a classical channel to transfer the information to interpret the new quantum states. That is, it doesn't allow faster-than-light transmission of data, thus has no speed advantages.

Therefore this is completely useless for any of the communications tasks you've suggested. In fact I'm not sure what quantum teleportation IS useful for.


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Post    Posted on: Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:13 pm
Hello, Furious Broccoli,

according to an article reporting Prof. Zeilinger's experiment to do quantum communication across the danubia only the information concerning the initial state of the sending photon is to be transferred - and it ONLY ONCE has to be transferred. Zeilinger successfully sent nearly 2 million bits after one transfer of the information concerning the intial state only.

Besides it is possible to provide this informtion longbefore a spacecraft arrives at Mars etc.

So quantum communication seems to be proved by Prof. Zeilinger to provide the use I am suggesting.

I will observe the evolution of this technology further and report my findings.



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Post    Posted on: Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:35 am
Ekkehard Augustin wrote:
only the information concerning the initial state of the sending photon is to be transferred - and it ONLY ONCE has to be transferred. Zeilinger successfully sent nearly 2 million bits after one transfer of the information concerning the intial state only.


You just can't send information faster than light, in no shape or form, whether or not the two sources were once in contact and exchanged initial information. If you could then modern physics as we know it would fall apart. Quantum teleportation is unfortunately only useful for doing interesting things at existing communications speeds, such as encryption.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_te ... ication.3F


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Post    Posted on: Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:16 am
As Zeiling did - it is possible to send the information concerning the initial sta of the sender-photon when the receiver is close to the sender and then to send the receiver to a very far distance. While it is close to the sender the initial information can be sent by radio or by cable.

Once the information concerning the initial state is sent no repetition is required. It will work and the other articles I listed earlier are tending to prove that.

You are using the term "quantum teleportation" - this is different to "quantum communication".

Zeilinger really proved that quantum communication doesn't be restricted to encryption but is able to transmit the information itself.

I'll read the article you have listed but Zeilinger's experiment I'm referring to took place very recently - within the last three months. I#ll compare that to the date of the article.

Additionaly at the NIAC Site there is a study proving the use of quantom communication - the author recommend to synchronize the clocks of satellites by quantum comunication and works out how that can be achieved.



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EDIT: I now have read the listed article in short. Results: 1. The authors don't mention Zeilinger's experiment anyway - this means that the artcle misses new experimental results. 2. The authors are explicitly stating that quantum theory says that "teleportation" happens instantaneously. They don't say that this is wrong. What they really say is that this doesn't violate special relativity. This question I wasn't discussing no way. Additionaly they consider the information concerning the teleportation but not the information concerning the initial state of a sender-photon - they consider what's going on AFTER "teleportation" but Zeilinger provides the required inforation BEFORE teleportation. The listed article is considering the topic under special circumstances different compared to the circumstances of Zeilinger's experiment as well as to the circumstances I have spoken of.

There's to be added that quantum communication isn't sending information faster than light because there is no movement through space and no velocities involved. The author's of the listed article seem to be involved in the scientific debate concerning the EPR paradox as one party. To refer to such parties isn't of any use here I think...


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Post    Posted on: Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:34 am
Ekkehard Augustin wrote:
Once the information concerning the initial state is sent no repetition is required. It will work and the other articles I listed earlier are tending to prove that..


You can't provide the state information BEFORE for something you have not yet measured! You must supply this information for absolutely everything you measure AFTER you measure it, meaning no new information of any form can ever be transmitted faster than light.

References:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/
http://fergusmurray.members.beeb.net/Causality.html
http://joot.com/dave/writings/articles/entanglement/
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... tanglement


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Post    Posted on: Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:34 am
Furious Broccoli,

to keep arguing as exactly as possible here there are certain principles:

1. Theoretical arguments are invalid against facts.
2. Facts are to be won by experiments.
3. Experiments have to be done following certain scientific principles.
4. Experiments that don't follow these principles are wrong.

So no theoretical argument or article you have listed is valid unless it refers to Zeilingers experiment as reported by "Bild der Wissenschaft"/www.wissenschaft.de at 08/19/2004.

I didn't read the articles you listed yet but I will do checking the date and the references.

The only valid arguments are those based on Zeilingers experiment and the report of his team. The report can be got from Zeiling if payed. I don't want to pay - so I don't have the report. Another source may be journals like nature. Theses valid arguments are only proving a fault of me if they are proving that I am misunderstanding something or that the article I read is wrong orr something similar to that.

As a consequence I will check my understanding and perhaps write an email to Zeilinger. I would prefer to do the latter in English with a bcc to you but to avoid misunderstandings between Zeilinger and ma myself I would write it in German. If I write the email and get an answer I'll report its contents here.

Just before writing this posted I read again the article published by "Bild der Wissenschaft"/www.wissenschaft.de and found really that the information is transmitted at once without wasting time. This is a fact. And this means that the information is transmitted instantaneously. (period...)

What you are arguing against is that the information that there has been an entanglement and what its nature is might be provided BEFORE the entanglement itself. And this I'm doubting regardless of theoretical arguments because of information concepts and technologies I am familiar to from my job. This I should discuss with Zeilinger or others like him - and report the results here. And - please - don't forget: There is a NIAC study stating that it's possible what I am discussing.



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Post    Posted on: Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:40 am
Ekkehard Augustin wrote:
What you are arguing against is that the information that there has been an entanglement and what its nature is might be provided BEFORE the entanglement itself.


Not before the entanglement, but after any measurement, because the rotation is altered in such a way that the entangled version's transformation will be completely random and hold no information without the corresponding result of the source measurement to reinterpret.

This seems to be the universe's way of preventing any real information ever being transmitted faster than light. I read the news report of Zeilinger's experiment, and it mentions nothing about faster than light information transmission being an application of this research.

Those references define everything we know about entanglement. If his experiment violated these rules then quantum mechanics would need revising, and this would be one of the biggest breakthroughs ever made. It's not, it's just another experiment on possible applications of quantum mechanics. In this case using normal-speed communications in conjunction with quantum entanglement to more accurately synchronize clocks.


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