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EMdrive - moment of truth

Posted by: sanman - Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:46 am
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EMdrive - moment of truth 
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Post Re: EMdrive - moment of truth   Posted on: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:44 pm
True. What separates thousands of good ideas (and not a few frauds) from practical reality is a truly working prototype.

If you build it,they will come. The "they" might be the men in suits with black helicopters, but come nonetheless. lol


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Post Re: EMdrive - moment of truth   Posted on: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:32 am
--I wrote in my first post that the motion induction engine is a modified car engine. Why would it not use a combustive fuel, spark plug etc? The energy for the billiard balls would come from the combustion explosions that occur within the combustion cylinder. I like your technical thinking jamesg and I would also agree with johno if it was so.

--jamesg, an explosion can be used as a firmly planted platform. If you place a bomb underneath a car and detonate the bomb, the car will rise from the ground. If while the car is in the air you could continue putting bombs underneath it and detonating them the car would remain in the air. This would be a platform created by explosions. Forces are used as platforms every day and a combustion explosion in a combustion cylinder can be used as a firmly planted platform. This engine we conversing about is just a convenient way of using explosions to animate a vehicle.

--johno, Why would I use low pressure air to push back the modified pistons? Its highly pressurize air that is used of course.

--Johno, I do expect their to be recoil from the engine when a combustion explosion occur in the cylinder but I do not expect it to be very high, the engine should still function despite this as the pistons forward force will still be higher than the recoil force.

--johno, The half circular cylinder is not just a half circle its an half circular cylinder with straight cylindrical ends. The straight ends are of a certain length so the modified pistons can move from the half circle to the end of the straight portions of the cylinder. So there is space for the movement of the pistons in relation to the engine block or in relation to the vehicle itself. The modified pistons basically move freely in the cylinder, the cylinder only contains it; it is not connected to it.
--johno, Balance of forces, if the forward force equals the reverse force there is no movement. The cylinder’s half circle shape balances the forward force of the explosion against the counter force of it through the cylinder metal (the cylinder is formed in the engine block) and brings both forces to the same direction. This cylinder shape allows the explosions counterforce to be used productively and be eliminated at the same time, as the counterforce could prevent the engine from being able to cause vehicle motion. The explosion takes place at the center of the half circle, expands and is focused by the cylinder’s shape onto the pistons. The resulting effect of this shaped cylinder I named “virtual engine platform”.

Will you guys give me a bit more credit than that, I am not a total idiot! I have spend a lot of time and effort in developing this engine I have applied for a patent for this and other versions of this engine and I am now trying to source funds to build prototypes with a view to setting a startup to manufacture motion induction engines and “motion vehicles”. Believe me there is not much if anything I have overlooked.

This engine takes a bit of information in order to be understood. I will post excerpts from the booklet “How the combustion motion induction engine works” to make these and other points clearer. This booklet is free to read if anyone would like to read it trv1070x.hpage.com. You can also see a rough composite diagram on the home page. I was trying to post some of the diagrams on the site but it did not work, what I will have to do is to provide links to these drawings.

Excepts (This is how it would work)

Each modified piston always comes to rest at the outside of the small cylinder (combustion chamber), one on either side of it. This is because the area between each piston and the bottom ends of the cylinder is normally filed with pressurize air. If springs are used instead of pressurize air the case would be the same. When the pistons are on either side of the small cylinder the combustion chamber is closed.

When the combustion explosion occur both pistons are accelerated and further compresses the pressurize air in both straight sections of the cylinder increasing the air pressure extensively. The now more highly compress air provides cushions for the pistons and bring them close to contacting the bottoms of the cylinder. The pistons push the vehicle from across the compress air; direct contact is not essential for energy transfer. Direct contact can damage the pistons and cylinder.

After the energy within the modified pistons dissipates (is transferred, induced) into the vehicle the pressure in the air is then enough to push them back to the small cylinder. The push back (fly back) of the pistons to the small cylinder sets up the engine unit for the next combustion explosion. The repetitive explosions produce thrusts which produces motion in the vehicle. The forward motion of the modified pistons is the power drive. The pistons fly back energy is very low.


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Post Re: EMdrive - moment of truth   Posted on: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:20 am
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an explosion can be used as a firmly planted platform. If you place a bomb underneath a car and detonate the bomb, the car will rise from the ground. If while the car is in the air you could continue putting bombs underneath it and detonating them the car would remain in the air. This would be a platform created by explosions. Forces are used as platforms every day and a combustion explosion in a combustion cylinder can be used as a firmly planted platform. This engine we conversing about is just a convenient way of using explosions to animate a vehicle.


That would be a rocket engine in its most efficient form. If your car was mostly fuel it could hover for three minutes.

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Post Re: EMdrive - moment of truth   Posted on: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:31 am
I'm glad you're still here. I was afraid you had read some critical posts and decided to go elsewhere. FWIW, I own 3 2-stroke petrol engines, a petrol 4-stroke engine and a diesel 4-stroke engine. I service all of them myself. I haven't had to take a problem to a professional mechanic in about 10 years.

inventor wrote:
--johno, The half circular cylinder is not just a half circle its an half circular cylinder with straight cylindrical ends. The straight ends are of a certain length so the modified pistons can move from the half circle to the end of the straight portions of the cylinder. So there is space for the movement of the pistons in relation to the engine block or in relation to the vehicle itself. The modified pistons basically move freely in the cylinder, the cylinder only contains it; it is not connected to it.


I have looked at your website already. I understand that it is a half torus, I probably said half circle in a previous post as a simplification. You really need to ask yourself some of the questions that have been asked here. We're not all complete idiots either. :) I am not being critical of your engine design for the sake of putting you down, I'm simply giving you my honest opinion of why it won't work. If the combustion process in your engine doesn't exert any significant pressure on the outside wall of the half torus that connects the 2 pistons, you should be able to reduce the weight of the engine significantly by removing almost all of the material making up that wall. Say reduce it to the thickness and strength of aluminium foil. If your intuition tells you that this is silly and the exploding gases will burst through the wall, then you are explictly admitting that there is pressure exerted on that part of the engine. That pressure is what will prevent the engine from operating as you think it will.

inventor wrote:
--johno, Balance of forces, if the forward force equals the reverse force there is no movement. The cylinder’s half circle shape balances the forward force of the explosion against the counter force of it through the cylinder metal (the cylinder is formed in the engine block) and brings both forces to the same direction. This cylinder shape allows the explosions counterforce to be used productively and be eliminated at the same time, as the counterforce could prevent the engine from being able to cause vehicle motion. The explosion takes place at the center of the half circle, expands and is focused by the cylinder’s shape onto the pistons. The resulting effect of this shaped cylinder I named “virtual engine platform”.


Try another thought experiment please. Take your half torus with 2 open ends. Remove the whole piston section of the engine. Suspend this half torus in the air, hanging from a string or whatever. Now introduce some fuel and oxidizer into the central point of the apparatus and ignite it. When the exhaust gas escapes it will push the half torus with momentum equal to the momentum of the escaping gases. If you accept this you must accept that the same will happen when you add more bits to the exhaust ports.

inventor wrote:
Will you guys give me a bit more credit than that, I am not a total idiot! I have spend a lot of time and effort in developing this engine I have applied for a patent for this and other versions of this engine and I am now trying to source funds to build prototypes with a view to setting a startup to manufacture motion induction engines and “motion vehicles”. Believe me there is not much if anything I have overlooked.


Here's something I believe you overlooked: Explain the process by which you remove the exhaust gases from the combustion chamber (they won't vanish by themselves), introduce fresh fuel and oxidizer, compress that fuel and oxidizer, and re-ignite it. Hint: I believe your pistons will need to go through twice as many cycles as they do.

You may well get a patent on this engine too. Most patent clerks are not qualified to analyse the inventions they look at. (Albert Einstein is an obvious exception to this rule). People have successfully patented perpetual motion machines, but you still can't buy one that works.

I've done my best to comment on this invention. I've tried to help you see the same problems I see. If you want someone to slap you on the back and give you false hope, I'm not the person for that job. I'm trying to stop you from wasting more time and effort on a dead end project. Patents are expensive, prototypes are expensive. I think you'd be better off working on something that stands a chance of succeeding. Good luck.

johno


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Post Re: EMdrive - moment of truth   Posted on: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:37 pm
its early here, and my caffine hasn't quite kicked in so please forgive me if my post is a bit....out there, lol

inventor wrote:
When the combustion explosion occur both pistons are accelerated and further compresses the pressurize air in both straight sections of the cylinder increasing the air pressure extensively. The now more highly compress air provides cushions for the pistons and bring them close to contacting the bottoms of the cylinder. The pistons push the vehicle from across the compress air; direct contact is not essential for energy transfer. Direct contact can damage the pistons and cylinder.


This may just be me, but the losses involvd with the air cushion (sp?) described in the quote would be huge. Air compresses alot, and almost all your energy would be lost in that compression, with very little transfered out of it into the external walls. If this system does work, this part of the system would contribute to a huge degredation in efficiency. If a fluid that had minimal compressability were used instead of air, (i.e. enough to prevent piston wall contact, but not enough to overly inhibit energy transfer to the outer wall) then that may solve one problem. Cavitation could begin to be a problem though.....

johno wrote:
Here's something I believe you overlooked: Explain the process by which you remove the exhaust gases from the combustion chamber (they won't vanish by themselves), introduce fresh fuel and oxidizer, compress that fuel and oxidizer, and re-ignite it. Hint: I believe your pistons will need to go through twice as many cycles as they do.


I was curious about this as well. I've not been able to go to your website as of yet, so if it's there I've not been able to see it yet.
What if it was treated similiar to a 2 stroke? as the pistons pass a certain point, it uncovers exhaust ports, and a forced induction system at the cylinder base blows the chamber clear. the rebound of the cylinder (assuming a non-air 'cushion' on the other end) may be enough for compression.
or... lol
instead of blowing the air out,(again with a non-air 'cushion') open a port at the combustion end, let the piston force the exhaust out on its return. before it hits BDC, close the ports and inject a hypergolic fuel mix. dangerous? maybe..... :D but it'd be fun to try


johno wrote:
I own 3 2-stroke petrol engines, a petrol 4-stroke engine and a diesel 4-stroke engine.


lucky.......


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Post Re: EMdrive - moment of truth   Posted on: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:19 am
--Idiom wrote

That would be a rocket engine in its most efficient form. If your car was mostly fuel it could hover for three minutes.


Containing an explosion as in a combustion cylinder in an internal combustion engine and harnessing the explosion is a more efficient way to use energy to generate vehicle motion than in releasing much of the energy to the surrounding environment as what happens in a rocket. A motorcar engine is far more efficient than a rocket engine. The problem with using a combustion engine in space or for ascending spacecrafts to space is that an internal combustion engine cannot cause motion of a vehicle in space the way it is presently designed. The CMIE (combustion motion induction engine) which is an altered car engine, by the way it will generate vehicle motion will allow an internal combustion engine to be used in space vehicles.

------------------------------------------

--johno wrote

I'm glad you're still here. I was afraid you had read some critical posts and decided to go elsewhere. FWIW, I own 3 2-stroke petrol engines, a petrol 4-stroke engine and a diesel 4-stroke engine. I service all of them myself. I haven't had to take a problem to a professional mechanic in about 10 years.


You have practical experience with combustion engines.

--Johno wrote

I have looked at your website already. I understand that it is a half torus, I probably said half circle in a previous post as a simplification. You really need to ask yourself some of the questions that have been asked here. We're not all complete idiots either. I am not being critical of your engine design for the sake of putting you down, I'm simply giving you my honest opinion of why it won't work. If the combustion process in your engine doesn't exert any significant pressure on the outside wall of the half torus that connects the 2 pistons, you should be able to reduce the weight of the engine significantly by removing almost all of the material making up that wall. Say reduce it to the thickness and strength of aluminium foil. If your intuition tells you that this is silly and the exploding gases will burst through the wall, then you are explictly admitting that there is pressure exerted on that part of the engine. That pressure is what will prevent the engine from operating as you think it will.


(A)
Yes, and not just pressure a lot of pressure will without a doubt be exerted on the walls of the half torus in the same way it is undoubtedly exerted on the walls of the cylinder of a car’s engine but isn’t that why a car’s engine block is made so strong. I agree that there is pressure there I don’t agree it will cause the engine not to cause vehicle motion. If you explode some material inside a pipe the explosive force tend to dissipate to each ends of the pipe not necessarily burst the pipe, push it forward or backward.
However I think you mean the backward or recoil pressure that develops from the forward motion of the explosive materials, you can correct me if I am incorrect, it’s a sort of rocket effect.

--johno wrote

Try another thought experiment please. Take your half torus with 2 open ends. Remove the whole piston section of the engine. Suspend this half torus in the air, hanging from a string or whatever. Now introduce some fuel and oxidizer into the central point of the apparatus and ignite it. When the exhaust gas escapes it will push the half torus with momentum equal to the momentum of the escaping gases. If you accept this you must accept that the same will happen when you add more bits to the exhaust ports.


(B)
Let’s call the effect you refer to the “rocket effect”. I expect this effect to occur within the CMIE (combustion motion induction engine) but I do not expect for several reasons that it will be as extensive as you seem to think it would be and I see your reasons. It seems we both agree on the same things, the point we don’t agree on is the extent of the effect and that may take rudimentary experiments or a mockup to determine.

If the thought experiment you indicated with my torus was carried out the way you say, yes it would produce motion of my half torus and yes if you put something in the way of the exhaust output the motion of the half torus would increase. There are a lot of techniques to this though, because if you put enough bits to the exhaust ports it will lower the flow of exhaust which is essential for the rocket effect. However I think you are correct and I have never really disagreed with these points. My question is how significant is this rocket effect particularly in relation to this engine? As you know this engine is not a rocket, there is no continuous explosion or extensive flow of exhaust, which would be a problem for the rocket effect. My half torus would be formed inside a modified engine block and engine blocks even small carry a lot of weight. If I suspend this modified engine block having my half torus with chains and trigger an explosion in it I doubt weather the resulting rocket effect force would be enough to move it. To produce a really significant rocket effect the explosion have to be continuous with high speed exhaust preferable coming out of a small area such as a nozzle. Importantly you indicate that the rate of the exhaust output is proportional to the resulting forward speed of the half torus but wouldn’t there have to be a sustained explosion with continuous exhaust flow to generate a useful rocket effect rather than just periodic pulses of explosions with low exhaust flow as would be in a car’s combustion engine? While I admit there will be rocket effect I seriously doubt weather the force it produces will be debilitating enough as to cause the engine not to be able to cause motion in a vehicle. The CMIE is more like a gun rather than a rocket. An explosion is caused in a chamber and the pistons absorb (harnesses) the explosions’ force, where is the continuous high speed exhaust?

(C)
The CMIE is also designed to reduce the rocket effect. Using a cylinder with both sides open is a way to decrease the rocket effect. If a normal combustion cylinder is used only the bottom part of the cylinder gives an outlet to the explosive pressure and would produce a greater rocket effect. Giving more than one outlet to the explosion lowers the pressure within the combustion chamber lowering the rocket effect. The CMIE combustion cylinder has two outlets.

And there are other ways of reducing the rocket effect. It can be reduced by increasing the size of the cylinder, like a water pipe if the pipe is larger the pressure within the pipe is lower. Rockets tend to use nozzles, removing the nozzle would decrease the power of a rocket. Another way to reduce the rocket effect is to reduce the force before the modified pistons allowing the pistons to accelerate freely lowering the pressure within the cylinder as it moves. As when the modified pistons move forward the volume of the cylinder expose to the combustion is greater. And still another way to decrease the rocket effect is to open the exhaust valve just after the pistons begins to accelerate and so reduce the pressure within the cylinder before the rocket effect begins to develop. There are ways to deal with this effect.

The aim of the half torus (half circular cylinder) is to create a platform made from explosions from which to launch an object. I named this platform a “virtual engine platform”. It is this half torus that will enable a combustion engine to function in space.

If you look at the rocket effect as not being the only counterforce effect that can cause this engine not to be functional and that the recoil or kick from the explosion can be the other counterforce this can be examined also.

(D)
If you consider a bullet being fired from a gun, as the gun powder explodes its exploding force goes in all directions. The barrel of the gun remains intact, because of its strength, the recoil is stopped by the stance of the shooter and the path of lease resistant is the open mouth of the gun. When a force comes upon something the weakest point of that thing tend to be most affected and the pressure on the other point’s decreases as the force is release through the weak point. The initial force on all points is equal when the explosion occurs but reduces drastically once the force begins to be release through the weak point and the majority of the force goes in the direction of the path of lease resistance. This polarization of a force effect is instantaneous. Polarization of a force in that the force flows in the direction of the path of lease resistance.

Because the explosion’s force is mainly released in the direction of lease resistance which is the area before the bullet I would expect the forward force of a bullet to be much much greater than the recoil force of the gun. If you completely seal the end of a gun and fire the gun it would jump out of your hand even though it generates a kick, which you would not feel because the gun would have only a resultant forward force. Firing a gun with it mouth sealed is possibly a perfect example of how the CMIE works.

It also important to realize that the explosion is taken place in an engine block that is connected to a vehicle, the recoil force of the engine would be up against all this weight plus any forward motion already in the vehicle. The resulting force of the vehicle should be a forward motion.

In the CMIE it is expected that their will be recoil this recoil like in a gun is not expected even with the rocket effect added to be debilitating enough to cause the engine not to be able to generate motion in a vehicle. As in the case of a gun the forward motion of the bullet (modified pistons) will be greater than the recoil. And like a gun with its mouth sealed the bullet (modified pistons) will strike the inside sealed mouth area of the gun pulling the entire gun forward with speed and force.

The way explosions occur in the CMIE is basically the way it occurs in any combustion engine. Why doesn’t the counter force of the explosion in a motorize engine lift the motor car from the ground? In many motorize engines the cylinder in the engine block is place vertically in that the top of the cylinders points toward the sky and the bottoms toward the ground. If the counterforce or recoil of the combustion explosions in its cylinders is so significant why doesn’t it push the car upward from the ground?


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Post Re: EMdrive - moment of truth   Posted on: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:18 am
Quote:
If you consider a bullet being fired from a gun, as the gun powder explodes its exploding force goes in all directions. The barrel of the gun remains intact, because of its strength, the recoil is stopped by the stance of the shooter and the path of lease resistant is the open mouth of the gun.


The recoil isn't stopped, it is transfered to the world, the entire world moves backwards precisely the same amount as the bullet moves forwards.

Quote:
Because the explosion’s force is mainly released in the direction of lease resistance which is the area before the bullet I would expect the forward force of a bullet to be much much greater than the recoil force of the gun. If you completely seal the end of a gun and fire the gun it would jump out of your hand even though it generates a kick, which you would not feel because the gun would have only a resultant forward force. Firing a gun with it mouth sealed is possibly a perfect example of how the CMIE works.


A sealed gun remains stationary when fired. Although it has a tendency to explode.

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Post Re: EMdrive - moment of truth   Posted on: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:56 am
idiom wrote:
Quote:
If you consider a bullet being fired from a gun, as the gun powder explodes its exploding force goes in all directions. The barrel of the gun remains intact, because of its strength, the recoil is stopped by the stance of the shooter and the path of lease resistant is the open mouth of the gun.


The recoil isn't stopped, it is transfered to the world, the entire world moves backwards precisely the same amount as the bullet moves forwards.


And when the bullet strikes its target, the bullets momentum is added to the world again, restoring the initial total momentum of the planet. (although there will be some displacement of air, and some energy spent in creating the sound and heat.)

johno


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Post Re: EMdrive - moment of truth   Posted on: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:09 pm
inventor wrote:
The aim of the half torus (half circular cylinder) is to create a platform made from explosions from which to launch an object. I named this platform a “virtual engine platform”. It is this half torus that will enable a combustion engine to function in space.

Have you considered other similar configurations for the engine design. Think about what would happen if you built this engine with just one piston. Keep the half torus chamber, just block off one end of it. You could also think about using 4 pistons offset by 90 degrees from each other. (Sorry, I don't have time right now to do a drawing of what I mean.) This adds more complexity to the engine manufacturing process, but I see no reason why 2 is the optimum number of pistons. You could even go to 8 pistons arranged in a formation like a spiders legs. Or maybe using a prime number of pistons would be the optimum number. Maybe 2 is that magic number, I just don't understand why. Have you considered using elliptical shapes instead of circular to base the torus on?

johno


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Post Re: EMdrive - moment of truth   Posted on: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:21 pm
ok, so as a simplification of this....

if i took a set of jackhammers (pneumatic hammers, whatever you preferto call them :) ) turned them upside down, and anchored their body to a solid plate, such that the 'hammer' was able to freely move and impact this plate. by the same train of thought as above, if all the hammers are activated together or in sequence, the platform should lift into the air. (see attached image)

while overly simplified, in theory this should work the same way as your system. that of course I am understanding what you are describing properly.

Note on the image: Feel free to get a good chuckle out of the image :) its about all i can manage on 30 seconds of MS Paint. If I had my Sketchup on this computer...lol, well, we wont go there... yet... :D

btw, if you haven't used sketchup, i suggest giving it a shot, pm me with any questions about it :)


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