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Fluor-Chlor-Hydrocarbons etc.

Posted by: Ekkehard Augustin - Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:19 pm
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Fluor-Chlor-Hydrocarbons etc. 
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Post Fluor-Chlor-Hydrocarbons etc.   Posted on: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:19 pm
Are there technologies which could be used by floating ports (JP Aerospace, adiffer etc.), space vehicles or other private space equipment to detect and remove Fluor-Chlor-Hydrocarbons causing the Ozon-gaps or -holes?

Or are such technologies imaginable?

My interets is caused by the floating ports especially and by the slowi moving ATO of JP Aerospace but other private vehicles may be able to remove the FCHC too.

What would have to be done to remove or to destroy it?

as far as I believe to know the FCHC is causing the gaps/holes by chemical reaction - could the process be reversed to free the destroyed parts of the Ozon?



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Post    Posted on: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:11 pm
Its quite likely by the time the particles get to that altitude they have already combined with and destroyed Ozone particles.

If it did work or was shown feasible, you could earn big money under a future Kyoto-style program.

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Post    Posted on: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:36 pm
CFC's have a very short life-time in the atmosphere, they need to be destroyed to destroy the ozone layer in the first place.

What happens is sunlight splits the CFC's into free radicals, which then go on to break up the ozone molecules. However, the CFC's themselves are destroyed in this process.

The problem with CFC's is not that they hang around, but more the fact that for every CFC-molecule that gets destroyed, many (guessing over a thousand) ozone molecules also get destroyed. The only other way to stop them is down on the ground.

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Post    Posted on: Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:55 am
As far as I know the Ozon gaps are not permanently there. They are forming in one or two seasons only. This menas that there is a beginning of formation which could be fixed by measuring Ozon, the Ozon-destroying free radicals of CFC and/or CFC itself.

These measurements could be done by floating ports perhaps.

The question then would be if they could gather the free radicals and destroy or remove them.

The Darl Sky Station of JP Aerospace is a huge station - it seems to be imaginable that the surface could be equiped with very small sensors and instruments. The instruments perhaps could get rid of the free radicals and the CFC directly around the huge DSS which is a floating port - it will be moving. If it would be kept within the region of the gaps/holes it could work on the free radicals etc. and reduce their share of atmosphere at small rates.

I am thinking about and searching for a theoretical or potential chance only - a beginning of thoughts, ideas: possible paths to get rid of the problem provided by JP Aerospace and others.

In more concrete words - can a technology be found that is capable of the detection of one or few molecules of free radicals of CFC or CFC itself only and of their destruction or removal too? A technology which could be installed at floating ports and or other vehicles?

If there were a university for example which is researching on such questions this university could make use of the floating ports.



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Post    Posted on: Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:29 pm
Since, as noted above, Fluorocarbons only do harm after they are destroyed, they are constantly being removed. With the radical reduction in their use and release, the atmospheric concentration is reportedly already decreasing. Lingering, or worsening problems are caused by something else.

It was once believed that the Ozone Layer, as we know it, accumulated over many years, and thus that minor damage would have long term effects. This is radically wrong, as the “Ozone Hole” “heals” within weeks of sunrise in the Antarctic. Just at the end of the long polar night, sunlight triggers a chemical rearrangement which frees Chlorine and Fluorine to damage the Ozone, and simultaneously begins the production of new Ozone to replace what was lost.

It is believed that the very abundant surface chlorine (including that released from seawater, Chlorox Bleach, treated water and swimming pools) has great difficulty in reaching the stratosphere although it would have the same effect when it did.


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Post    Posted on: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:36 am
Sev wrote:
CFC's have a very short life-time in the atmosphere, they need to be destroyed to destroy the ozone layer in the first place.

Here is a VERY good link about ozone.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/ozone-depletion/
After reading this extremely long document I realize it is a way more complex problem than I even want to think about. Here is a quote from section 2.7 of the intro:

CFC's themselves do not destroy ozone; certain of their decay products
do. After CFC's are photolyzed, most of the chlorine eventually ends
up as Hydrogen Chloride, HCl, or Chlorine Nitrate, ClONO2. These are
called "reservoir species" - they do not themselves react with ozone.
However, they do decompose to some extent, giving, among other things,
a small amount of atomic chlorine, Cl, and Chlorine Monoxide, ClO,
which can catalyze the destruction of ozone by a number of mechanisms.
The simplest is:

Cl + O3 -> ClO + O2

ClO + O -> Cl + O2

Net effect: O3 + O -> 2 O2

Note that the Cl atom is a _catalyst_ - it is not consumed by the
reaction.


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Post    Posted on: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:10 am
JP Aerospace has had many internal discussions on this very subject. The notion, on a very high level, is that if you can place major large scale inferstructure in the upper atmosphere you are ideally placed to study, sample and potentially correct problems.
This has been incorporated in our long term plan and also our immediate operations. Sensors, and test equipment flown on our missions reflects this.

What is really needed is an army of atmospheric chemists, scientests and other reseachers who are interested and dedicated to the study of the near space environment. People who are passionate about this understudied realm. But, how can we find them?

anyone out there want to fly a PongSat.........


JP


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