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SpaceX, Libertarian discussion

Posted by: Sigurd - Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:18 pm
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SpaceX, Libertarian discussion 
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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:42 pm
Sigurd wrote
"That's a total diffrent story you write now... personally I see fox as a not so nice company to libertarians... but that's my opinion."


..." I'm a libertarian "left". and trust me.. that includes VERY SOCIAL laws and government to help the poor, invalids, elder, etc. and to look out for the little guy.

The part I marked in BOLD.. is a lie.. stop making me and others look bad with those false accusations.
I think I can accuse you now of ignorance and knowing not enough about the politcal beliefs.


I think you misunderstand me. In the USA, a libertarian is someone to the right of a Republican--who loves less taxes, no restrictions, etc. A liberal is someone in favor of gov't protection.

Libertarian was 'old left' (neo-conservative now..Neal Boortz)
Liberal is new left. More like us Sigard.

I should have pointed that difference out.


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Post    Posted on: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:04 am
I've usually heard "libertarian" used in reference to people who would be more accurately described as "anarchist"; the actual term "libertarian" is used so rarely in common conversation (the usage seems to be almost peculiar to the personal spaceflight movement) that I've imposed my own personal definition on it, one more true to the original meaning of "liberal" -- but the Democratic party already took "liberal" and screwed it up beyond all recognition.

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Post    Posted on: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:45 am
Hello, Sigurd, TerraMrs and SawSS1June21,

I can't but agree that politics should be avoided. It is possible to apply the Regulations section to topics like SpaceX's lawsuit. It might be possible to include several different views that cover os satisfy differnt political standpoints theobjective, logical or scientific way. Then terms like "libertarian", "socialist", "conservative" and the like could and should be avoided - they miss real concrete operable contents.

For example "libertarian" is not monolithic and nearly not definde. Even "libertarian left" isn't . I am not a libertarian left but I am a libertarian - I voted for the german Free Democratic Party in the last elections for the Deutscher Bundestag.

What's defined are terms like "market libertarian", "politcal libertarian", "economics libertarian", "ordo-libertarian", "Hayekian libertarian", "Erhardian libertarian" (special german term linked to the former minister of economic affairs Ludwig Erhard who created the german economic system of the early days of the Bundesrepublik) and the like.

Thge list is going to be very long but each term is defined very well on a philosophical base. This hold for "socialist", "conservative" etc. as well.

I am around "Erhardian libertarian", "ordo-libertarian", "philosophical libertarian"

I could explain the terms and the thoughts inside where required I think.



Hello, spacecowboy,

the terms are used very confusedly. The american Democrats are the pendant of our german Socialdemocrats which are "liberal" no way. In Germany "liberal" is "freiheitlich" (freedom-oriented). This the american Democrats are socialists seen from Germany...

Beyond th all this there are very well defined terms like "governmentalist", "fiscalist" etc.

Regarding Liberalism there is a core of values:

self-responsibility
liability
atonomous initiative
respect and attention to each individual in order not to reduce his or her freedom, self-responsibility...

and much more.



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Post    Posted on: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:53 am
Lol, I guess one of the problems is.. many people see diffrent things into the same words...

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Post    Posted on: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:55 pm
Very true. The term "Republican" means different things across the Atlantic, and the term Libertarian does too.

Here in America Nelson Mandela, The dalai lama and Ghandi would not be called Libertarian at all, except in the social sense.

Anti-gov't thought doesn't mean anti Bush here so much as it means, say, anti-FDR, etc.


"Possible Publi. got confused with the fact:"

America's Libertarian Party, which couples law of the jungle right-wing economics with liberal positions on most social issues. Often their libertarian impulses stop short of opposition to strong law and order positions, and are more economic in substance (ie no taxes) so they are not as extremely libertarian as they are extremely right wing. So Publi was confusing the Libertarian Party, a party I don't prefer to support or even help or belief in.

That was what I was talking about when I meant "libertarian," (I really meant Libertarian Party) since that is the definition I am most familiar with here in the US. Many of their ideas are shared in the US side of the X-prize community, and that is what concerns me.

Many dislike NASA because tax money goes into it, where I support NASA and institutions like the Department of Energy that both the GOP and the US "libertarian party" want to kill.

US "Libertarian" Party folks here don't support NASA as a whole, (there are exceptions of course). They want to outsource jobs, and can actually hurt home grown industry and research by thinking private initiative solves everything.

To clarify. It was the US Libertarian Party and its followers in the US X-prize community I was taking issue with, not good people like you Sigurd.

Politics is depressing so I'll shut up. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


Last edited by publiusr on Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post    Posted on: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:33 am
publiusr wrote:
Politics is depressing...


Amen. I avoid politics and religion, and hope for a long and prosperous life because of it.

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Post    Posted on: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:26 am
I would hesitate to jump into this snake pit, but I saw something recently that might be of use. (and I decided to put it in this thread since this was split off the thread that got me started on this tonight)

In reading some random article on an alternative-media news site, I saw someone make sure to make the distinction between "libertarian" and "Libertarian". Similar to the distinction between "truth" and "Truth". (and I don't mean the anti-smoking campaign) If you don't understand by now, this is going to be difficult to describe.

I would like to think that I have some libertarian leanings.. but every time I start thinking about it, I butt heads with the problem of corporations. Less law and more personal responsibility might be fine between individuals, but what happens when it's the power of a hundred or a thousand or ten thousand people in one legal entity vs. one person? (that doesn't even address the topic's origin properly, smaller corporation vs. larger corporation)

Mind you, I don't have some inherent problem with corporations just for the sake of having problems with them. In fact, if I ever pursue some of my ideas, I'll probably be the founder of a corporation made to take advantage of them. But when I think about this stuff, and when I read some of the things I read about libertarianism, (or perhaps Libertarianism?) I just can't reconcile the two as things are now. Maybe it's un-libertarian/Libertarian to say so, but I tend to think that it can't be applied equally between individuals and corporations. And no, I don't have any alternative answers.. yet.


I've also seen it said that libertarians are somewhere between conservatives and anarchists in the grand scheme of things.. but with all these neo-conservatives and neo-liberals and neo-this-that-and-the-other-things running around these days, who can tell?


(in the interests of full disclosure, I am a registered Independent)


If you want some interesting (particularly if you're American) readings on the whole libertarian thing, try: http://rexcurry.net

I don't necessarily publicly endorse anything said there, but I do find it very interesting and thought-provoking reading.

Hopefully it does not cause any possible legal issues for our European readers, because it does have some discussions on Hitler and some WW2-era imagery and its origins. (although not what I would call supportive discussions)


EDIT: Now that I think about this a little more, perhaps we should coin the term "neo-libertarian" to describe Libertarians? Heh.

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Post    Posted on: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:09 am
Hello, Strategery71,

your post includes a lot of true issues.

There is one I want to pick up in short:
Quote:
smaller corporation vs. larger corporation


Libertarianism - regardless of lower case or upper case - or (in German) "Liberalismus" doesn't have to do with size or scale with "smaller versus larger" but with rules to which the "larger" has to obey quite like the "smaller". Libertarianism means that size, scale, power doesn't matter no way regarding the question if someone has to obey to the rules set by law..

And as well Libertarianism means that the rules have to be set so that they don't favour no group and neither the "larger" nor the "smaller".

The purpose of the rules has to be to ensure, save and develop the freedom of the individuum.

So the rules allow to be large as well as to stay small etc. but forbid abuse and misuse of freedom.

This is the focus of "Ordo-Liberalismus" or ordo-libetarianism (regardless of written upper case or lower case)

And this really is somewhere between conservatives and anarchists because it allows that the status quo is challanged, questioned and threatened in favour of the possibility of change as well as it prevents anarchism because there still is a ruler: the rules established by law.

There has to be soemone who sets the rules and makes them govern - that's the goverment. But in order to keep freedom and libertarianism, "Freiheit" and "Liberalismus" the governement has to elected by the free individuums - so Liberatarianism/"Liberalismus" and democracy are unseparable brothers. ...

...
.,..
...



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Post    Posted on: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:21 am
Quote:
This is the focus of "Ordo-Liberalismus" or ordo-libetarianism (regardless of written upper case or lower case)


Maybe it loses something in translation, the lower-case vs. upper-case thing. I will attempt to explain.

In the example of "truth" vs. "Truth", the "Truth" part is more like belief passed off as fact. "truth" is a statement like "it was cold today", where "Truth" would be "g*d made it cold today". The latter pre-supposes that everyone in the conversation believes in the religious views of the speaker.. and while it may contain some actual "truth", (the cold day part, in this example) it also contains belief passed off as fact. Probably not the most creative example, but what do you expect at 4 AM? :p

EDIT: I suppose you could say "truth" can start arguments, while "Truth" can start wars.

In the case of "libertarian" vs. "Libertarian", "Libertarian" would be used to denote a member of the Libertarian Party.. which, as I believe this thread is establishing, may not actually hold all that many libertarian views for the sake of libertarianism. (in other words, I believe someone else stated they thought people adopted it in hopes of avoiding paying taxes) They may champion some concepts of libertarianism, but would not generally be considered to be libertarians. Or, as Texans might say, "all hat and no cattle"..

Does this clear up the distinction at all? Or did I make things worse?

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Post    Posted on: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:39 am
Hello, Strategery71,

it cleared it up by far.

And you are right - a Libertarian Party as well a "Freie Demokratische Partei Deutschlands" nearly never holds all that many libertarian views existing. Libertarian parties don't claim to do that, don't want to do so and can't do so - if they are true libertarian which the german libertarian party "Freie Demokratische Partei Deutschlands" is.

They don't claim and want and they can't do so simply because they are libertarian and don't force nobody to take over a special libertarian view. In this they are very distinct to the german socialdemocrats for example who are again and again dbetaing what's the right and correct socialdemocracy really is or has to be and tend to fill new meanings into old terms which is causing confusion. They also fill new meanings into libertarian terms to do harm to libertarianism and libertarians.

Something similar as for socialdemocrats holds for conservatives and christiandemocrats but by far not to that degree because they simply want to keep trhe status-quo while their left counterparts want change but go too far in that and thes want the change not to be a free one but a controlled one - controlled by themselves...

"True libertarian" or "true Libertarian" - there a non-libertarians who mask themselves as libertarians as well as members of the Libertarian Party of a country as as non-members: "Don't judge a book by its cover"...

...
...
...



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Last edited by Ekkehard Augustin on Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Post    Posted on: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:13 am
I think it's hard to say these days where a person stands for.. if they just say libertarian... for me.... it includes all liberal things, as well as Left Liberal... but it seems in the US.. it's more about the right than left...
I think people's political view is more compex in the end.. than just left -right and authoritarian - libertarian as values...
Not only do many have a diffrent defenitions for the same words.. there're many more point of views.. people can have diffrent opinion with..

:roll: I'm a sigurdtarian, it has a great defenition, do good... for myself :wink:

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