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SpaceX, Libertarian discussion

Posted by: Sigurd - Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:18 pm
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SpaceX, Libertarian discussion 
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Post SpaceX, Libertarian discussion   Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:18 pm
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http://www.spacefellowship.com/Forum/vi ... 7029#17029

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My only point is that it is unfair to bash gov't and then turn its legal system for help.

Isn't that a narrowminded view ?

Things can have good and bad sides, and often you have to work with them, to make it more to your needs. So how unfair is it ? I don't think it's unfair. I think your comments are unfair, lucky, it's only your opinion, and not a fact.

A simple example.. imagen a long time ago, you're at school... a teacher does something you don't agree with (as example, giving candies to ONLY 50% of the classroom), and he or she, has some ideals, like "red" glass is better than a white glass for in school windows...
And you critize the teacher.. Red glass is more expensive.. and normal glass is cheaper AND allows more light into the classroom.
So, should limit that your right, to argue with the teacher that it's unfair that only 50% of the classroom gets candy ? You don't have to "love" the teacher or always support him/her.. same with the government, it's not a thing you have to AGREE or DISAGREE with, you can agree "sometimes" and on other moments disagree..

Quote:
It is something many space libertarians do


I'm a libertarian, so what is wrong with it ?, does everything need to be black or white / yes or no / true or false? I'm sure it's not just a libertarian thing...

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Last edited by Sigurd on Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.



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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:35 pm
Well, that's my point.

The mindset that 'gov't is always bad/private initiative is always better' is just what I wish to question. That doesn't have to be all one way or the other.

I'm glad Musk does have an ability to sue--to get his case heard. I just hope that he doesn't turn around and say (after his first successful launch):

"See, we don't need gov't."

And then get a nice NASA contract.

Let's agree that the best mix is to have both gov't and private concerns work together.

In terms of the lawsuit, many things can happen. A libertarian minded judge can rule one of two ways. He can throw Musk out of court saying that he needs to compete on his own--or if he is a big union-buster type, he might smell weakness in Boeing and rule for Musk just to make Boeing's life even more miserable.

A more liberal person who is pro-union might see Musk as a threat to jobs, but may side with Musk because he is the 'little guy facing Corporate America.'

After all, ULA has a lot more money to put into good lawyering than Musk. Once again, engineers do without as lawyers rake in all the dough.


Last edited by publiusr on Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:42 pm
Quote:
The mindset that 'gov't is always bad/private initiative is always better' is just what I wish to question. That doesn't have to be all one way or the other.


That's the problem, it us you, who's considering they think " 'gov't is always bad/private initiative is always better' ".
Please let me know if you find "proof" they actually said that, or consider that true.

Quote:
"See, we don't need gov't." And then nice NASA contract. Let's agree that the best mix is to have both gov't and private concerns work together.


They can go to orbit without the government, yes, it sounds ANTI government, but it is NOT anti government, it shows they can do it without them, but does that say they hate them ? want to get rid of them ?.
They have critisized the government before, for several flaws, shouldn't the public be aware and trying to FIX the government, to something better ?

If someone else would write a sentence similar as "Hey I can live now without Social Security!", they try to say the same, they are able to achieve something that's good for them or in spacex case also for others without the help of the government.
Does this sounds like anti government ? I think it's only a question about how "you" read it, not how it actually is.

I'm sure they ARE NOT against the government and SUPPORT many of their programs.

I'm a libertarian, but I'm not an extremist, same as many others, but it's easy to REFLECT your frustrations onto it.

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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:53 pm
Sigurd wrote:
Quote:
The mindset that 'gov't is always bad/private initiative is always better' is just what I wish to question. That doesn't have to be all one way or the other.


That's the problem, it us you, who's considering they think " 'gov't is always bad/private initiative is always better' ".
Please let me know if you find "proof" they actually said that, or consider that true.


Well, if you have heard American talk radio, that's all the proof you need.

I just lament how engineers seem to be overridden by all types.
Take the Tennesse Valley Authority. The libertairans here do not believe in public works projects, and consider it 'pork.' The greens also would oppose TVAs flood control programs, saying it did someting to some fish or other.

The point is that a lot of the infrastructure we enjoy probably would not get done in this climate. The levee system in Louisiana for instance. Bush opposed money going to it, and environmental regulations also impeded it.

Greens hate heavy industry in the USA, and the Free-traders want it outsourced. So both sides it seems, are wrecking the progress we need. Libertarians may oppose some stupid regulations on industry, but they lose me with all the NASA bashing.

Apollo, TVA, the Eisenhower Interstate system--none of these institutions would get done today. I want a futurist in the White House--not someone who worships dirt or money. I don't have a lot of hope for the future of humanity, frankly.

And I just learned the Senate passed a 20 billion dollar Foreign aid bill.

Lovely.

Now that's when we need the libertarian voice. But unlike them--I would put that money into NASA, or a Bering Strait Bridge project, instead of back into Warren Buffet's pockets, say.


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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:13 pm
I'm not going to discuss all other groups ideals, while I don't agree with several of your comments, I'll just ignore it, to avoid an endless discussion.

Quote:
Well, if you have heard American talk radio, that's all the proof you need.


So, that's proof SpaceX is against the Government ?

And I'm sure you can find comments by any political group/side that are not nice, or things you don't agree with.
The dark ages.. they who're looking for a witch.. will find one;)

I don't think you have any reason to claim such things to Elon Musk and SpaceX.. if you think otherwise, give me facts and proof.. and no just something like "American talk radio"... else I can mention.. just look at the internet.. you'll see that the moon landings where actually a cover up operation by the government... so don't be silly and don't let your mind fool yourself, with wrong unlogical steps of thinking.

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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:33 pm
SpaceX isn't anti-government--I was just talking about the general climate you see on the FOX talking heads shows that can infiltrate even the best intentioned people. SpaceX's best friend will be the gov't. if Musk gets a ruling in his favor, provided the judge isn't on the take.

To me, the job of Gov't is to look out for the little guy. The libertarian mantra is to handle things yourself and not look to the 'nanny state' for help. (Yes, total dependancy can be bad, I know that as well.)

If Musk is to prevail, it will be because of certain protections in the law that was written specifically to protect the little guy from big business--the same sorts of laws that libertarians like to rail against as a rule.

I just find it ironic.

We all know that the space privatization movement is largely if not totaly dominated--or influenced by--libertarian thought. If Musk prevails, it will because someone with politics closer to mine wrote some laws to protect little guys like Musk. The libertarian mantra on the other hand is 'no law in the arena.'

Can regulation be bad? Yes.

Libertarians have their points.

Ironically, it was anti-trust laws that hurt the electric car. One company that produced electric cars owned the patent to the internal-combustion engine--and sat on it. We lost the dominance of the electric car early last century due to folks railing against the 'electric cab trust' and a judge who interpreted the law--saying that the patent only referred to one kind of internal combustion engine--the otto type.

Were it not for the trust busters, we might have cleaner air today, with electric plug in sockets instead gas stations, allowing for less sprawl, and allowing only industrial plants to have combustion, whose by-products are easier to clean than millions of separate automobiles. Cars wouldn't go as far, to be sure, but that would encourage a better sense of community.

I guess the law of unintended consequences works both ways.

I am not saying that Musk is against the gov't. I just hope that he and others appreciate the protections that the laws give him, and I hope something good comes from his lawsuit.

When a judge is in session--no one is safe.


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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:54 pm
Quote:
SpaceX isn't anti-government--I was just talking about the general climate you see on the FOX talking heads shows that can infiltrate even the best intentioned people. SpaceX's best friend will be the gov't. if Musk gets a ruling in his favor, provided the judge isn't on the take.


That's a total diffrent story you write now... personally I see fox as a not so nice company to libertarians... but that's my opinion.

Quote:
To me, the job of Gov't is to look out for the little guy. The libertarian mantra is to handle things yourself and not look to the 'nanny state' for help. (Yes, total dependancy can be bad, I know that as well.)

Wrong, I'm a libertarian "left". and trust me.. that includes VERY SOCIAL laws and government to help the poor, invalids, elder, etc. and to look out for the little guy. As I have to mention twice to you now, "liberatarian" does not means liberal EXTREMISM only. As authoritarian does not means DICTATORS only.
I'm supporting socialism a lot for those who "need" it and request it. and freedom and liberty for those who do want to have it. (but not free from law or prosecution)
That does not means, left libertarians wants total freedom, it's only the extremism right sided extremism libertarians who wants such things.
So stop putting those FALSE accusations to me and others who're part of the libertarian side.

For you to learn about:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politic ... lysis2.php
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politic ... thaxes.gif

I hope you "know" you claimed those things to Nelson Mandela, The dalai lama and Ghandi who are all part of the Left Libertarian side. Only a small part of the extreme right side is the side that deservers your comments.

Or should I claim all people on your side are NAZI's ?

Quote:
If Musk is to prevail, it will be because of certain protections in the law that was written specifically to protect the little guy from big business--the same sorts of laws that libertarians like to rail against as a rule.


The part I marked in BOLD.. is a lie.. stop making me and others look bad with those false accusations.
I think I can accuse you now of ignorance and knowing not enough about the politcal beliefs.

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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:11 pm
now if publiusr, you're just saying that it's hypocritical for alt.space folks who are hardcore anti-gov't to then applaud spacex for suing blockmart, then i agree with you. if you're saying elon was wrong to do it, then i disagree, as he is clearly not anti-all government. it seems clear to me that the suit has merit, so therefore it's good that he filed it. just because fringe activists are hypocritical doesn't mean the cause is wrong- the fringe activists are almost always... i'm tempted to say always... hypocritical. just because they don't understand the social contract and economic system we live under doesn't mean those of us who do and also support the same cause are hypocritical. most american "libertarians" are not libertarian because they understand the free market- they're "libertarian" because they don't want to pay taxes. i don't consider that libertarian, i consider it just another form of republican.

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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:23 pm
Thanks Elliot,

Quote:
most american "libertarians" are not libertarian because they understand the free market- they're "libertarian" because they don't want to pay taxes. i don't consider that libertarian, i consider it just another form of republican.


I think this describes them very well.. and clearly shows that what publiusr is talking about targets the wrong people.

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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:00 pm
...and there are undoubtedly a significant number of republicans whom would bristle at being described so inaccurately, too!

If you want to have reasonable political discourse without the stupid name-calling and white-washing and generalizing and mud-slinging and other sundry nastiness that normally accompanies the topic (particularly in this medium, [which may actually be impossible]); a pursuit that I think is highly inadvisable, the first thing you will need to do is establish a rule about not using any "conventional" political labels. Either that or expand your glossary section to include about five times as many terms.

I really hope that politics DOESN'T become a favorite topic around here, though, it would RUIN an otherwise great site. Better to just ignore the ramblings of the posters whom wax politic.

P.S. Publi is a pinko, isn't it obvious?


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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:11 pm
SawSS1Jun21,

I think you're right, it should end.

Possible Publi. got confused with the fact:
Quote:
America's Libertarian Party, which couples law of the jungle right-wing economics with liberal positions on most social issues. Often their libertarian impulses stop short of opposition to strong law and order positions, and are more economic in substance (ie no taxes) so they are not as extremely libertarian as they are extremely right wing.


So Publi was confusing the Libertarian Party, a party I don't prefer to support or even help or belief in.

Quote:
...and there are undoubtedly a significant number of republicans whom would bristle at being described so inaccurately, too!

I think there was no comment made that general attacks or target any republican.
I think Elliot (Terramrs) his point of view, atleast how I "saw it" and used it in my reply, as that how Publi. described it, is more a right side point of view, and Republic party is known for their general more right sided members. That does not say, all republicans are on the right side, or don't want to pay taxes.
I'm sure most (almost all) of them DO wanne pay taxes and are concerned about their fellow people. The extreme right (or left) is extreamly rare. And I don't think anyone on this forum is member of any of such extremistic side.

I have no problem with the Republic party, I only had a problem with Publi his statement about the libertarian because it was just plain wrong.
There're libertarians in the republican and democratic party, so I guess there is no question about what side it is.
In general, most members in the senate and congress are authoritarian.. so "I think" in "my opinion" most politics is played on the field of "left and right" (not only in the US).

I'll not accept a discussion about what's right OR wrong in ideals, but Publi. made a mistake in stating "facts" wrong, and I think it was necessary to show him he was wrong and that he should stop blaming all libertarians for the actions of a few extremely right sided people.
I'm http://hhboard12.free.fr/Sigurd/cross.gif so I couldn't agree with Publi. at all.

For informative purpose:
Most republicans are neither very right sided.. (a country with many extremely right sided people wouldn't work in my opinion).
Even the sides that ARE considered more to the extreme side:
Quote:
U.S.neo-conservatives, with their commitment to high military spending and the global assertion of national values, tend to be more authoritarian than hard right. By contrast, neo-liberals, opposed to such moral leadership and, more especially, the ensuing demands on the tax payer, belong to a further right but less authoritarian region. Paradoxically, the "free market", in neo-con parlance, also allows for the large-scale subsidy of the military-industrial complex, a considerable degree of corporate welfare, and protectionism when deemed in the national interest. These are viewed by neo-libs as impediments to the unfettered market forces that they champion.
Source: http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politic ... lysis2.php

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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:50 pm
ok a) i know plenty of people who are republican and are legitimately so, however the majority of the party, like with the democrats, is republican simply because they've always been that. both majority parties have their good and bad points, but that doesn't change the fact that most of their members have no idea what they're talking about. "libertarians" are a lot closer to republicans than democrats, so that's what i was referring to, not bashing the republican party (at least not exculsively :wink: ). b) yeah siggy you're about as not-libertarian as they come... especially for a rich person! i personally do agree with a lot of their points, as there is economic merit to a free market, however the libertarian party itself goes too far. i personally support strong law and order, national defense, universal education, and some modicum of social welfare (medicaid + some unemployment insurance), along with regulations on most industries. everything else should be run according to what's most efficient, and the market usually is the most efficient (some exceptions, like nasa should do pure science and exploration as the market won't do that in and of itself).

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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:56 pm
If I would be living in the US.. I would wish there was a Libertarian party who's not right, but left 8) (maybe it exists.. but except reading news.. I'm not very active in US politics )
I guess in the US, many people will see me as a socialist.

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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:57 pm
Sigurd wrote:
If I would be living in the US.. I would wish there was a Libertarian party who's not right, but left 8) (maybe it exists.. but except reading news.. I'm not very active in US politics )
I guess in the US, many people will see me as a socialist.


there is.... it's called the socialist party....

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Post    Posted on: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:59 pm
TerraMrs wrote:
Sigurd wrote:
If I would be living in the US.. I would wish there was a Libertarian party who's not right, but left 8) (maybe it exists.. but except reading news.. I'm not very active in US politics )
I guess in the US, many people will see me as a socialist.


there is.... it's called the socialist party....

:roll: I only hope they are not too softy, often socialists are too left sided :P (for me)

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