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We are Going to the Moon!

Posted by: VolksRocket - Sat May 17, 2014 8:54 pm
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We are Going to the Moon! 
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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:21 pm
Hi,

JAMESG

VG is corporate publicity in also showing that suborbital thrill rides can be done.

GLXP is only bad in the way it is run, a better way is our challenge, the challenge is to build a rover, we supply the ride to the moon, then whoever sends back pics, video, and goes the farthest or last the longest wins.

Yes, just like the XPrize, GLXP, will cost 3 to 4 times what you win the way it is setup. Paul Allen spent 32 million to win the 10 million Xprize. But hey it was all written off as a tax break.

Yes, the GLXP and XPrize foundation are a scheme to get them rich.....and it is working.

Do you think it would be possible to get NASA or anyone to develop real, actual contests to increase interest in civilian space access?

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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:39 am
No you're not. Not until...

1. The Falcon Heavy flies (2015).

2. The Dragon V2 flies with crew (2016) and is opened to commercial flights.

3. Whatever service and habitat modules are necessary are developed, including for the surface, perhaps via Bigelow inflatables.

4. Acquire about $500 million to $1 billion to pay for the first flight opportunity. Presumably the cost will go down with time, but I doubt below $100 million in the first decade.


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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:57 pm
In other words, don't hold your breath.


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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:55 pm
Hi,

OPTIMISTIC BRIAN

Well nobody said it will be easy!
Nope, won't be using them, will be using in house hardware.

JAMESG

We can't give up! We must keep trying, it is a moral imparative.

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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:52 pm
Hi,

Update: ~2014061514:51.07

The first Civilian Space Access - CamRover Mission to the Moon will be a launch vehicle, lunar lander, and four camera rovers.

The selection process for the launch vehicle that will take the lander to the moon is open to anyone.

The selection process for the lunar lander is also open to anyone.

The selection process for the four camera rovers is also open to anyone.

The specifications for the rovers, lander, and launch vehicle will be posted soon.

If you would like to be part of this let us know.

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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:46 am
VolksRocket wrote:
Hi,


JAMESG

We can't give up! We must keep trying, it is a moral imparative.


That and finger twiddling.
Seriously, what makes going to the moon a moral imperative?

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Your right in what you say.....and that is the problem! Government, Commercial, Military, Rich, space does not want "the people" to have access to space, because they have enough trouble controlling us on Earth.


Dan?

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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:41 pm
Hi,

SuperShuki - I was kidding with JamesG, it is a line from the movie "Real Science".

There is "NO" reason to go anywhere, but we are going because we want to. Or, pick any reason you want, but we are going just as surely as the Earth will turn and the Sun will come into view again!

We are going to the Moon to stay, future generations can go to Mars!

"Dan?" More Input! (Short Circuit)

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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:53 pm
VolksRocket wrote:
Hi,

SuperShuki - I was kidding with JamesG, it is a line from the movie "Real Science".

There is "NO" reason to go anywhere, but we are going because we want to. Or, pick any reason you want, but we are going just as surely as the Earth will turn and the Sun will come into view again!

We are going to the Moon to stay, future generations can go to Mars!

"Dan?" More Input! (Short Circuit)


Sorry, I didn't get that.
Dan is a contributor to the forum who has some kooky ideas, to put it kindly. Like alien abductions.

I think it's a great idea to go to the Moon. But I don't think that making a plan helps anything - you need capital, and lots of it. Since Elon Musk is already set on going to Mars, I don't see the purpose of making a plan and getting everyone on this forum together to get there. Unless you have lots of money - in which case, I'd be glad to contribute my vast store of knowledge! :lol:

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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:52 pm
There are three kinds of capital. More if you divide it more finely. While they aren't entirely interchangeable, it may be possible to use labor to substitute for "capital" (money) or "land" (machinery). Such as using unskilled labor to dig a ditch instead of a back hoe because it costs less to pay a couple of guys minimum wage than it costs to rent or maintain a piece of machinery.

Of course that only goes so far, you can't exactly build some sort of Greek galley with three decks of human rowers and expect to get to the moon. But there are alternate organizational and resource structures that are often overlooked. The Israeli Kibbutz system for example...


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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:47 pm
JamesG wrote:
There are three kinds of capital. More if you divide it more finely. While they aren't entirely interchangeable, it may be possible to use labor to substitute for "capital" (money) or "land" (machinery). Such as using unskilled labor to dig a ditch instead of a back hoe because it costs less to pay a couple of guys minimum wage than it costs to rent or maintain a piece of machinery.

Of course that only goes so far, you can't exactly build some sort of Greek galley with three decks of human rowers and expect to get to the moon. But there are alternate organizational and resource structures that are often overlooked. The Israeli Kibbutz system for example...


The kibbutz system only "worked" because there was a very extreme situation - and at the expense of a terrible living standard for all affected. Israel had to take care of massive (over 100%) immigration and integrate the immigrants, many of whom didn't have advanced skills, into the country - while at the same time, fighting off almost continuous attacks and wars by multiple nations surrounding it. That's not to mention international boycotts, and all this in a desert wasteland. The kibbutz forced people to live in a low standard of living, and most of the kibbutzim have gone bankrupt. It's a bad example.

Any system that isn't based on free trade and capitalism will necessarily involve forcing people to work for things they don't want to do. This is because everyone works for their self interest (as they define it) - and that self interest is symbolized by money. When you buy and apple for five dollars (its an expensive apple, I guess), you are really saying, "I am interested in that apple in the amount of five units". And the seller is saying, "The apple is worth to me five units of self interest". If you artificially change anything in the transaction, by, for example, saying that apples will only be worth four units, the buyer will want to buy, but the seller won't sell.
If you demand that the buyer spend one unit on an orange he doesn't want, he won't have enough to trade five units of self interest for the the apple. So why should he work to get those five units in the first place? Now the seller can't sell either, so he won't work to pick the apples, and an economy falls apart . . .
If you redistribute what people produce to things that they don't want, you are not only forcing them to work for things they don't want, you are removing their incentive to work, and will necessarily decrease efficiency. That's how and why capitalism and free trade work, and why other systems don't.
There's a reason that SpaceX is so successful, and why private enterprise is the future of space.

PS
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLr2if-BdA4&index=6&list=PL15FA8081E869BC2A for a great presentation of this.

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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:18 pm
That video was almost as condescending as you are. :P

The Kibbutzim IS a good example if you have a group of people focused on a single goal and devoting all available resources on it (instead of buying and selling overpriced apples to each other). You don't get much more extreme than trying to get to and settle the Moon (or Mars), which is the context of this discussion.


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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:47 pm
JamesG wrote:
That video was almost as condescending as you are. :P

The Kibbutzim IS a good example if you have a group of people focused on a single goal and devoting all available resources on it (instead of buying and selling overpriced apples to each other). You don't get much more extreme than trying to get to and settle the Moon (or Mars), which is the context of this discussion.


The Kibbutzim are. "Kibbutz" is singular, "Kibbutzim" is plural. :P

Resources don't just become "available". They are created. What incentive will people have to create resources if they don't have any individual responsibility?

The Kibbutzim were bailed out time and time again by the State as they went bankrupt. The State was bailed out by Jews around the world. Who will bail you out when you are on Mars?

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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:21 pm
Hi,

SuperShuki - You should read my book, "UFO - Civilian Conspiracy", in a nutshell....."Elvis is Dead, and there ain't NO UFOs!"

I don't believe money is the problem, but your example is close. People don't buy stuff that isn't worth it to them or practical for them. There are no practical or worthwhile plans to go to the Moon(or Mars), that is what I want to develop and then "Actually" do it!

Elon is only existing due to the grace of "the government and taxpayer dollars.

JamesG - Agreed we have to make our mind up (which we have done), we have chosen to go to the Moon(not Mars), and now we are commited to make this happen. We make a pathway, "we are here, we want to go there, now how do we do this!" In a step-by-step, practical way, and when people see what we say and do are the same and it is actually happening then they choose to get on board or look elsewhere.

Like you say, we are not buying apples, we want moon pies!

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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:04 pm
SuperShuki wrote:
The Kibbutzim are. "Kibbutz" is singular, "Kibbutzim" is plural. :P


Thank you for that little bit of pointless pedantry. :roll:

Quote:
Resources don't just become "available". They are created. What incentive will people have to create resources if they don't have any individual responsibility?


What makes you think they won't have responsibility or personal choice? Why are you jumping to Soviet Communism?

Quote:
The Kibbutzim were bailed out time and time again by the State as they went bankrupt. The State was bailed out by Jews around the world. Who will bail you out when you are on Mars?


They were bailed out because they needed capital inputs because they were starting from scratch. They were building a country out of the desert as I'm sure you are aware. That could not/would not have been possible under the conditions and the time frame that it was under regular market economies. Much like the colonization and industrialization of anywhere off Earth isn't going to happen with our current system of capitalism. Either governments will do it, or... something else will, open collaborative, totalitarian dictate, or machine overlords cracking their electric whips...

SpaceX isn't a good example of Capitalism in action either. It is a billionaire spending his fortune pushing it forward, he has a relatively small circle of investors and the business and the SpaceX operation is pretty small relative to the big boys and NASA. Tesla and the battery business is already the same size physically and financially and will quickly grow much bigger. Musk's announced dream of going to Mars is just talk and some pretty CGI at this point. They have no real plans or hardware to actually get there in the foreseable future, and have no way to finance such a private venture. They will have to get government to foot the bill.


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Post Re: We are Going to the Moon!   Posted on: Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:11 pm
VolksRocket wrote:
In a step-by-step, practical way, and when people see what we say and do are the same and it is actually happening then they choose to get on board or look elsewhere.


The biggest problem is that most people are not interested in space much less want to go there and they never will. The are caught up and happy with their little worlds.

So resources will always be limited for space for a long, long time.


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